Thorp and Sailor's Grave Board

Patriot Act, Freedom, etc...

XHonusWagnerX - 5-21-2008 at 02:11 PM

Some guys at work were talking about what the police, FBI, CIA etc can do as far as tracking people, wire taps and what not. I didnt really talk much because I dont know for sure and didnt want to say something that was wrong.

So.... what is the deal exactly? Like can they just randomly tap into someones phone conversations? Internet use? Check the websites you visit? People you call? Anyone know the specifics?

joemaconmovies - 5-21-2008 at 02:20 PM

that's what i understand that can happen but i don't also know the specifics but i do have some intelligent friends who were very against it. i'm not exactly sure what it all means.

Murk - 5-21-2008 at 04:03 PM

Quote:
Allows the FBI to access your records without a warrant or probably cause. It forces any third party, including doctors, libraries, bookstores, universities, and Internet service providers- to turn over records on their clients or customers.

Forbids disclosure of their seizures. In other words, the FBI can, without a warrant, review what books you are reading and forbid the librarians from informing you that you are being watched.

No longer requires the government to show evidence that the subjects of search orders are an “agent of foreign power,” a requirement that previously protected Americans against abuse of this authority.

Frees the FBI from showing reasonable suspicion that the records are related to criminal activity, much less the requirement to show “probable cause” that is listed in the Fourth Amendment.

Removes judicial oversight, a part of checks and balance. Judges would not have the authority to deny any investigation.

Allows surveillance orders to be issued based on one’s First Amendment activities. You could come under investigation because of the books you read, the Web sites you visit, letters to the editor you write, or even attending this rally.

Forbids disclosure of an investigation, denying the individual the right to challenge illegitimate searches.

Violates the Fourth Amendment, which says the government cannot conduct a search without a warrant and showing probable cause to believe that the person has committed or will commit a crime.

Violates the First Amendment’s guarantee of free speech by prohibiting recipients of search orders from telling others about those orders, where there is no real need for secrecy.

Violates the First Amendment by effectively authorizing the FBI to conduct investigations of American citizens in part of exercising their free speech.

Violates the Fifth Amendment by failing to provide notice – even after the fact – to persons whose privacy has been compromised. Notice is a key element of due process, which is guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment. Notice allows one to question irregularities in the warrant and forces law enforcement to operate in the open. Without notice, we have created a secret Gestapo.

Allows wiretaps without warrants for criminal prosecution. It effectively revokes your right to speak without your conversations being monitored. The justice department has regularly acted irresponsibly in this area. The FISA (Federal Intelligence and Security Act) Court noted that federal agents applying for warrants had regularly filed false and misleading information.

Puts the CIA back in the business of sping on Americans. This was outlawed due to abuses in the 1970s and earlier when the CIA engaged in widespread spying of protest groups and other Americans.

Creates the crime of “domestic terrorism” in which those supporting groups such as Operation Rescue, Greenpeace, or PETA could come under investigation. Any non-citizen providing assistance to any such group could be detained or deported.

Allows for the indefinite detention of non-citizens, denying them due process.

i'm just glad that Patriot Act II and the Victory Act got shut down.

upyerbum - 5-21-2008 at 05:03 PM

The Patriot Act is very unAmerican.

XHonusWagnerX - 5-21-2008 at 05:59 PM

but what exactly do those laws say?

bombidol - 5-21-2008 at 06:00 PM

In essence they can do ANYTHING they want under the patriot act. Just think of it that way.

clevohardcore - 5-21-2008 at 06:28 PM

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&resnum=0&q=cia%20satellite...




Arial view of were I live. I tdidn't link my house but clic on satelite button and you can get a view of your neighbor hood in almost real time.

BDx13 - 5-21-2008 at 06:39 PM

don't worry clevo, google earth and the satellite view of google maps is not real time.

my neighborhood was built five years ago and google still shows it under construction.

Murk - 5-21-2008 at 07:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by XHonusWagnerX
but what exactly do those laws say?

they're worded very heavily in legalese.

sometimes the changes have to do with just a word or two, but you have to ping pong back and forth from the original law to the list of changes outlined in the Patriot Act.

Quote:
The legislation is an amalgam of changes to dozens of federal statutes in 300 subject areas.

it's like a big menu outlining the changes to existing laws.

here's a nice little excerpt:
Quote:
SEC. 209. SEIZURE OF VOICE-MAIL MESSAGES PURSUANT TO WARRANTS.
Title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in section 2510--
(A) in paragraph (1), by striking beginning with `and such' and all that follows through `communication'; and
(B) in paragraph (14), by inserting `wire or' after `transmission of'; and
(2) in subsections (a) and (b) of section 2703--
(A) by striking `CONTENTS OF ELECTRONIC' and inserting `CONTENTS OF WIRE OR ELECTRONIC' each place it appears;
(B) by striking `contents of an electronic' and inserting `contents of a wire or electronic' each place it appears; and
(C) by striking `any electronic' and inserting `any wire or electronic' each place it appears.


http://epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

now multiply by hundreds of pages.

here's the kicker:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06...

Quote:
Sunday, June 12, 2005

On Thursday, President Bush stepped to a lectern at the Ohio State Highway Patrol Academy in Columbus to urge renewal of the USA Patriot Act and to boast of the government's success in prosecuting terrorists.

Flanked by Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales, Bush said that "federal terrorism investigations have resulted in charges against more than 400 suspects, and more than half of those charged have been convicted."

Those statistics have been used repeatedly by Bush and other administration officials, including Gonzales and his predecessor, John D. Ashcroft, to characterize the government's efforts against terrorism.

But the numbers are misleading at best.

An analysis of the Justice Department's own list of terrorism prosecutions by The Washington Post shows that 39 people -- not 200, as officials have implied -- were convicted of crimes related to terrorism or national security.

Most of the others were convicted of relatively minor crimes such as making false statements and violating immigration law -- and had nothing to do with terrorism, the analysis shows. For the entire list, the median sentence was just 11 months.

Taken as a whole, the data indicate that the government's effort to identify terrorists in the United States has been less successful than authorities have often suggested. The statistics provide little support for the contention that authorities have discovered and prosecuted hundreds of terrorists here.


A Breakdown of 330 Cases Includes data sorted by type of conviction and terror group affiliation:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/dojstats/full330...

it also seems hard to believe that this huge piece of legislation was drafted in 6 weeks after the attacks.

clevohardcore - 5-21-2008 at 08:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BD
don't worry clevo, google earth and the satellite view of google maps is not real time.

my neighborhood was built five years ago and google still shows it under construction.








I noticed that today in class. We looked at the school and it showed the college without the new library. Form last year. Either way its weird and strange. Like the government is saying Yes we are powerful but don't worry "we don't spy on you" wink wink.

Six66Mike - 5-21-2008 at 08:53 PM

I don't see how this is still surprising people over 5 years later lol. Bush has snuck in a lot of bad things, and a ton of executive orders.

Did you know he made an Executive Order on May 1 sanctioning Myanmar, knowing full well Nargis would be making land fall on May 2? There's far more to the current story of Myanmar refusing US aid off navy ships than the media is telling, and sactioning a poor country 24 hours before a cyclone hits (which developed and was being tracked from April 27) is just one reason they are refusing the US aid.

If Red Cross was actually allowed to go in and provide aid I'm sure they would accept, but the Order from Bush prevents aid organisations from helping the government or people of Myanmar.

Sort of off topic but it goes to show how many incredibly wrong laws these people have run in under your noses, veiled poorly under a threat of terrorism.

XHonusWagnerX - 5-21-2008 at 09:30 PM

Im not surprised.... Just tyring to understand a little because of the conversation at work.

Discipline - 5-21-2008 at 09:59 PM

Never trust the government, regardless of country.

clevohardcore - 5-21-2008 at 11:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Discipline
Never trust the government, regardless of country.








^^^^^^ Never trust the Country, because of the government.:umm:

Siczine.com - 5-22-2008 at 12:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Discipline
Never trust the government, regardless of country.


Damn right.

upyerbum - 5-22-2008 at 07:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Murk
it also seems hard to believe that this huge piece of legislation was drafted in 6 weeks after the attacks.

DaveMoral - 5-22-2008 at 08:49 PM

If there's anything we should have learned from the Rev Jeremiah Wright scandle is this... GOVERNMENTS LIE!

If you read the transcript of, or watched the video of, the controversial sermon that was cherry picked for that whole ordeal.