Thorp and Sailor's Grave Board

The election

Mark Lind - 5-21-2008 at 02:39 PM

This could turn into an interesting thread. Who are you for? What are your thoughts on the current state of the Dem race? Any guesses on VP's? What are important issues for you in the election?

XHonusWagnerX - 5-21-2008 at 02:50 PM

It might be a bad attitude, but I think that the country is so far gone, I dont know who can fix it. I dont have this issue, but I also think that a lot of America is closed minded enough that they may not vote for a woman or a black man. I've heard people on the radio talking about how if its Clinton & McCaine they either wont vote or they will vote McCaine even though as of now they are supporting Obama.

I dont know very much about polotics so my 2 cents is probably only worth about 1/2 a cent. Of course with the state of the country 2 cents really is only worth 1/2 a cent.

JawnDiablo - 5-21-2008 at 03:36 PM

none of them are going to do anything about anything so what's the difference......

gavin - 5-21-2008 at 03:36 PM

tough situation right now
i dont like clinton or obama
i did at one time like mcain but this was years ago
he has since bowed to the pressures of his party

the dems. problem is that they can never get a strong person to rep. the party, not since bill clintion anyway(who i liked and voted for twice)

i do have some respect for mccaine
he was a p.o.w. for over 5 years and i respect anyone who was in that position
other then that he has become just another republican

tough call on who is gonna win
i say its obama vs mcaine/gulianti maybe

the backlash against the republicans may be strong enough at this point to give obama the win.

i dunno.

im registered an independent but lean more to the liberal thinking process at least socially

im not sure i even care at this point honestly

Murk - 5-21-2008 at 03:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
the backlash against the republicans may be strong enough at this point to give obama the win.

yeah, strange things have been happening...

http://uk.reuters.com/article/marketsNewsUS/idUKN14542372200...
Quote:
"The loss of three straight special elections, in once solidly Republican districts, cannot be explained simply by 'bad candidates' or by being out organized,"

Quote:
Democrats gained more political ground on Tuesday when they won a special election to fill a vacant seat in a conservative Mississippi district previously held by Republicans.

joemaconmovies - 5-21-2008 at 04:59 PM

this is a bad attitude to take but i don't even think i'll vote this year. i'm really sick of voting for people who i find are the lesser of two evils (kerry vs. bush) and i think we're so far gone right now, no one can really fix it. i'd love to be proved wrong. i just don't think i'm voting. i'm not a fan of the electoral form of voting we use anyways.

SHAKO KEN - 5-21-2008 at 05:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juandiablo
none of them are going to do anything about anything so what's the difference......

for anyone who thinks voting is useless or there's no difference between candidates, think about this: would a democratic administration have invaded iraq? how many people you know are affected by the war in iraq?

it's not just about one president, it's all the people that come with them. personally i'd prefer a dem over a rep administration pretty much any day. ideologically i'm closest to kucinich or nader but they don't stand a chance.

clevohardcore - 5-21-2008 at 05:45 PM

I think things are good. Obama to take office and the public start to fuck it up and celebrate like its somehting tremendous and monumental. Not realizing that they are all tools themselves.

joemaconmovies - 5-22-2008 at 08:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SHAKO KEN
Quote:
Originally posted by juandiablo
none of them are going to do anything about anything so what's the difference......

for anyone who thinks voting is useless or there's no difference between candidates, think about this: would a democratic administration have invaded iraq? how many people you know are affected by the war in iraq?

it's not just about one president, it's all the people that come with them. personally i'd prefer a dem over a rep administration pretty much any day. ideologically i'm closest to kucinich or nader but they don't stand a chance.


maybe they wouldn't have chosen to invade iraq but most democrats did vote to go to war, so part of me thinks they might have. to that degree, it does seem like voting is useless cause our own representatives didn't listen to those of us who thought going to war was a bad idea. they don't represent us, they represent themselves. that's why i don't want to vote.

gavin - 5-22-2008 at 08:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by joemaconmovies
Quote:
Originally posted by SHAKO KEN
Quote:
Originally posted by juandiablo
none of them are going to do anything about anything so what's the difference......

for anyone who thinks voting is useless or there's no difference between candidates, think about this: would a democratic administration have invaded iraq? how many people you know are affected by the war in iraq?

it's not just about one president, it's all the people that come with them. personally i'd prefer a dem over a rep administration pretty much any day. ideologically i'm closest to kucinich or nader but they don't stand a chance.


maybe they wouldn't have chosen to invade iraq but most democrats did vote to go to war, so part of me thinks they might have. to that degree, it does seem like voting is useless cause our own representatives didn't listen to those of us who thought going to war was a bad idea. they don't represent us, they represent themselves. that's why i don't want to vote.




i agree with joe here.
the dems would have gone to war also i think
it may not be to the degree that it is now but in reality they are all the same

none of them represent us
they are out for themselves
politics is a business after all

Voodoobillyman - 5-22-2008 at 08:56 AM

The real problem was the focus of the war. We were right to invade Afghanistan after the attacks on NYC and DC , the Taliban openly defied extraditing those responsible for the act of war and it certainly justified military action. The crime in my opinion resides with the way the post invasion of Afghanistan was handled by the current administration. And then the left field focus and invasion of Iraq which had nothing to do with the war on terror declared. It now has everything to do with it as Iraq has been chosen as the central fighting point for both sides in the years since. It is crucial we leave Iraq only when the government is stable enough to police itself and defend it's borders. That is not just a political line, it has been declared that iraq would be the perfect base of operations for Jihad on Israel, if you think we have problems now, let these fuckers take Iraq and launch a large scale attack on israel. Israelis don't fuck around, they would nuke one of their Arab neighbors lickety split and then all goes to hell in a handbasket real fast.
I consider my voting choices to be private and don't share them with anyone, not even my wife, but I have a clear decision on the best person for the job and that is how I will vote come November. Interesting times my friends, interesting times indeed.

gavin - 5-22-2008 at 08:57 AM

all i know really is that i hate that ytoung people are getting hurt over there and whoever is willing to bring voodoo and his friends and the young people over there home gets my support

Mark Lind - 5-22-2008 at 09:12 AM

The idea of not voting is really discouraging. That's the mentality that gives our generation a bad name.

I don't believe that this election comes down to the lesser of two evils. I believe Obama actually gives a shit and can actually do something. And more importantly, I believe he really wants to do something.

Regarding the war, there's NO WAY we would have gone into Iraq if Al Gore had been declared the winner of that election. Read Richard Clark's book "Against All Enemies". The Bush Admin was trying to connect Iraq to 9/11 since 9/11. It was an opportunity to them. Its true that many Democrats voted for the war but that decision was based on false intelligence presented by the Administration. Not to mention, like 75% of US citizens supported the war then. Things have changed a lot since then and many people have sort of re-written the history of their own opinions. But if the war is your concern then look at Obama's history of opposition to the war.

gavin - 5-22-2008 at 09:18 AM

obama is ok i guess
i dunno
i liked him ok until that rev. of his opened his mouth
i know it shouldnt change my opinion of him but it did


i think i would make a pretty good president

BDx13 - 5-22-2008 at 09:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
The real problem was the focus of the war. We were right to invade Afghanistan after the attacks on NYC and DC , the Taliban openly defied extraditing those responsible for the act of war and it certainly justified military action. The crime in my opinion resides with the way the post invasion of Afghanistan was handled by the current administration. And then the left field focus and invasion of Iraq which had nothing to do with the war on terror declared.


wow, did i login as voodoo and write this?

SHAKO KEN - 5-22-2008 at 09:27 AM

the whole idea of invading iraq came from wolfowitz, rumsfeld and several other neo-cons in their think tank "Project for the New American Century" even before gwb was president. once they came into office they just had to find a way to sell it to the world.

Voodoobillyman - 5-22-2008 at 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
all i know really is that i hate that ytoung people are getting hurt over there and whoever is willing to bring voodoo and his friends and the young people over there home gets my support


I hear ya bro, and believe me, we all want to get the hell out of here real bad. But not bad enough to leave those incapable of defending themselves to the wolves here. Some of the shit these muslim extremists have done to their own would break your fucking heart. If we leave the way Obama wants us to, it would be a tragedy for alot of people here. Alot of these kids fighting here have come to find purpose in the sworn protection of the meek. I have alot more faith in this generation based on what I have seen here. This truly could be the next greatest generation after our grandparents. It gives one hope

Voodoobillyman - 5-22-2008 at 10:33 AM

By the way, the whole "if we leave too soon/too quick" line being used in current politics is not something I am echoing, I am speaking from direct no shit experience.

BDx13 - 5-22-2008 at 11:41 AM

despite being someone who generally leans left, and i do not think we should hurry out of iraq.
i'd love for the men and women in the armed services to be home asap, but i believe that dropping everything and running out would be a bad move.

Mark Lind - 5-22-2008 at 12:02 PM

I'd like to think that some of what Obama is saying about getting out of Iraq ASAP is a bit of acceptable lip service. People want to hear that and as long as he rolls up his sleeves on Day 1 and starts working on it then it makes the promise come true. But in all reality it will have to be a much more complicated process. I'm excited about the idea of really exploring all the diplomatic avenues available. I feel like our current leadership is willing to just let it linger on and on. We need solutions. If it turns out to partially be a military solution then so be it. But we need to take steps in the direction of resolving the problem. That's my 2 cents.

I also feel like the people of the Middle East will accept Obama a little more than they accept Bush. So maybe the idea of having a new face will help ease tensions across the board and we can see some improvement.

joemaconmovies - 5-22-2008 at 12:12 PM

i know saying that i don't want to vote and probably vote is a bad attitude and doesn't reflect greatly on our generation. it's just how i feel now because i feel so fucking fed up with the politics and this two party bullshit. they really, in the end, don't care about us. everyone tries to play everyone against each other. and i could go on but i'm just so fed up with it and i don't see much changing. i think iraq was a mistake but now we're stuck in another vietnam (correct me if i'm wrong voodoo, you're there and i'm not). i want our boys/girls home safe. bush put us there and the democrats voted to put us there. they all apologize now and put their own spin on it but...it almost feels empty to me.

BDx13 - 5-22-2008 at 12:21 PM

a new face named OBAMA will help!

joemaconmovies - 5-22-2008 at 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BD
a new face named OBAMA will help!


i don't even know how honestly i believe him and how much he's just blowing smoke up our asses. i dunno. like i said. i'm fed up so...ignore me.

Jason the Magnificent - 5-22-2008 at 01:12 PM

Change.

He's quite a salesman.

You can use one word as a slick advertising tag line and have a large portion of a nation rally behind it.

We're a dumb fucking species on the whole thats for sure.

Obama is basically 'Bizarro Bush'. The guy has a whole lot of stammering going on about really nothing at all, everytime I've ever heard the guy speak I feel like I just got talked into buying snake oil. He'll fuck us up just as much as Bush, just in the opposite direction.

and McBain....jesus.

I'm writing in Ted Nugent and going to the tavern.

BDx13 - 5-22-2008 at 01:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by joemaconmovies
Quote:
Originally posted by BD
a new face named OBAMA will help!


i don't even know how honestly i believe him and how much he's just blowing smoke up our asses. i dunno. like i said. i'm fed up so...ignore me.


i only meant that putting a brown man named Barack Hussein Obama in office would likely affect the opinion of other nations.

joemaconmovies - 5-22-2008 at 01:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BD
Quote:
Originally posted by joemaconmovies
Quote:
Originally posted by BD
a new face named OBAMA will help!


i don't even know how honestly i believe him and how much he's just blowing smoke up our asses. i dunno. like i said. i'm fed up so...ignore me.


i only meant that putting a brown man named Barack Hussein Obama in office would likely affect the opinion of other nations.


that i do agree with. plus i'd love to give a big fuck you to all the racist red necks who wouldn't vote for him for that reason.

barc0debaby - 5-22-2008 at 06:27 PM

Lets go Socialist workers party! My presidential candidate is a convicted felon and green card carrying immigrant.

Siczine.com - 5-22-2008 at 09:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
obama is ok i guess
i dunno
i liked him ok until that rev. of his opened his mouth
i know it shouldnt change my opinion of him but it did


i think i would make a pretty good president


What was it that you didn't like about what the Rev. said? Just curious.

And I think Obama is the 'lesser of two evils' from the Dem party. And McCain isn't bad for a rep. but I still won't vote for him. I wish Ron Paul still had a chance but as far as I know McCain is locked in as the rep.'s nomination so no chance for Guiliani (noticed someone mention him).

Obama is relying heavily on the race card and this whole "change movement" that Jason echoed on, and man does it reek of (bull)shit.

With that said, I will vote for Obama in the election like I did for him in the primary. He will be under a lot of scrutiny, and sadly just for his color but I think that may keep him on the right track.

barc0debaby - 5-22-2008 at 09:47 PM

I think the Reverends statements were great...even if I don't agree with what he said, thats some real fuckin patriotism. I was amazed to see such an amazing display of honest opinion amongst todays watered down and appeasing nature. Shake things up goddamnit!

Siczine.com - 5-22-2008 at 10:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by barc0debaby
I think the Reverends statements were great...even if I don't agree with what he said, thats some real fuckin patriotism. I was amazed to see such an amazing display of honest opinion amongst todays watered down and appeasing nature. Shake things up goddamnit!


Definitely!

morgan - 5-23-2008 at 02:22 AM

Got a card to register to vote the other day. It's in the trash can as we speak.

Voodoobillyman - 5-23-2008 at 02:32 AM

You should all vote.

Voodoobillyman - 5-23-2008 at 02:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Lind
I'd like to think that some of what Obama is saying about getting out of Iraq ASAP is a bit of acceptable lip service. People want to hear that and as long as he rolls up his sleeves on Day 1 and starts working on it then it makes the promise come true. But in all reality it will have to be a much more complicated process. I'm excited about the idea of really exploring all the diplomatic avenues available. I feel like our current leadership is willing to just let it linger on and on. We need solutions. If it turns out to partially be a military solution then so be it. But we need to take steps in the direction of resolving the problem. That's my 2 cents.


This is exactly what needs to be done. Not a rapid removal of forces (which could end up being bloodier than the initial invasion) but a change in policy and a smart method of getting all of us the hell out of here that leaves something tangible and workable intact. What is siad of sacrifice in this war is true, if we pull out and leave chaos in our wake, the lives of 4000+ has been completley wasted on nothing. We are commited to this now no matter what.

SHAKO KEN - 5-23-2008 at 09:03 AM

4000 soldiers plus all the iraqis.
i saw this graph on another forum:



i don't know if it's accurate but i wouldn't be surprised. although they don't mention iraqi insurgents. moving out too soon would probably add a whole lot more to the iraqi bar.

Murk - 5-23-2008 at 04:26 PM

do these people think before they speak?

http://www.nypost.com/seven/05232008/news/nationalnews/why_h...
Quote:
Hillary Clinton today brought up the assassination of Sen. Robert Kennedy while defending her decision to stay in the race against Barack Obama.

"My husband did not wrap up the nomination in 1992 until he won the California primary somewhere in the middle of June, right? We all remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June in California. I don't understand it," she said, dismissing calls to drop out.

MyOwnWay - 5-23-2008 at 10:47 PM

My vote...

www.gravel2008.us

barc0debaby - 5-25-2008 at 03:12 PM

SS76 - 5-25-2008 at 03:17 PM

Tie between Lemmy and Larry Flynt.

DaveMoral - 5-25-2008 at 10:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by barc0debaby


Funny movie.

gavin - 5-25-2008 at 10:54 PM

i dont like anything any fuckin reverend or such has to say
once i hear of someone who may end up in a position of power having close ties to ANY outspoken religious figure, i turn off.

Siczine.com - 5-26-2008 at 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
i dont like anything any fuckin reverend or such has to say
once i hear of someone who may end up in a position of power having close ties to ANY outspoken religious figure, i turn off.


I feel ya.

joemaconmovies - 5-26-2008 at 02:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Siczine.com
Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
i dont like anything any fuckin reverend or such has to say
once i hear of someone who may end up in a position of power having close ties to ANY outspoken religious figure, i turn off.


I feel ya.


sigh. damn people for having beliefs in a religion.

gavin - 5-26-2008 at 02:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by joemaconmovies
Quote:
Originally posted by Siczine.com
Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
i dont like anything any fuckin reverend or such has to say
once i hear of someone who may end up in a position of power having close ties to ANY outspoken religious figure, i turn off.


I feel ya.


sigh. damn people for having beliefs in a religion.




no man not at all
i dont knoock anyone for their beliefs
whatever gets ya through the day

what i do have a problem with is its insertion into politics
religion and ones faith has NO PLACE in politics
none

i dont want to hear who is into what religion or what god one prays to
do it on your time
not when you are in a position of power and influence
and not when it will replace common sense and sway one in a decision making position where religion has no place

joemaconmovies - 5-26-2008 at 03:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
Quote:
Originally posted by joemaconmovies
Quote:
Originally posted by Siczine.com
Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
i dont like anything any fuckin reverend or such has to say
once i hear of someone who may end up in a position of power having close ties to ANY outspoken religious figure, i turn off.


I feel ya.


sigh. damn people for having beliefs in a religion.




no man not at all
i dont knoock anyone for their beliefs
whatever gets ya through the day

what i do have a problem with is its insertion into politics
religion and ones faith has NO PLACE in politics
none

i dont want to hear who is into what religion or what god one prays to
do it on your time
not when you are in a position of power and influence
and not when it will replace common sense and sway one in a decision making position where religion has no place


it's not his fault the media picked up on it and made it such a huge deal. obama didn't really bring it up. the media did, leaving him no choice but to answer back. if you have a problem with it blame the media.

gavin - 5-26-2008 at 03:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by joemaconmovies
Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
Quote:
Originally posted by joemaconmovies
Quote:
Originally posted by Siczine.com
Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
i dont like anything any fuckin reverend or such has to say
once i hear of someone who may end up in a position of power having close ties to ANY outspoken religious figure, i turn off.


I feel ya.


sigh. damn people for having beliefs in a religion.




no man not at all
i dont knoock anyone for their beliefs
whatever gets ya through the day

what i do have a problem with is its insertion into politics
religion and ones faith has NO PLACE in politics
none

i dont want to hear who is into what religion or what god one prays to
do it on your time
not when you are in a position of power and influence
and not when it will replace common sense and sway one in a decision making position where religion has no place


it's not his fault the media picked up on it and made it such a huge deal. obama didn't really bring it up. the media did, leaving him no choice but to answer back. if you have a problem with it blame the media.




i dont blame anyone
im turned off to the fact that he has this close, personal relationship with this outspoken religious figure

is it right that this turns me off?
probably not
but the bottom line is that it did

JawnDiablo - 5-26-2008 at 03:58 PM

there is supposed to be a seperation of chruch and state.

joemaconmovies - 5-26-2008 at 04:11 PM

did he say he was gonna rule by what his rev. said or his religion? if he's pro choice then he's not. and you get my idea. separation of church and state doesn't mean the guy can't have a personal or close relationship with the rev. of his church. sometimes, when you go to a church for a while...that does tend to happen. you guys can't give me one good argument other then you hate religion so...i'm done having this conversation.

gavin - 5-26-2008 at 04:28 PM

dude what the fuck are you arguing about here?
i said my opinion of the guy changed when that stuff came out
i also stated that it may not be right
but its how i feel

im not the one trying to give you a good argument
you're the one who continues to go after what i have said and all i stated was my opinion.

im allowed to not like someone for whatever reason i choose
whether you find it silly or not

i honestly dont know what you are so worked up about other than you may happen to support obama or are religious or both.
either way, more power to you.
im not arguing your opinions or trying to get you to justify them.
i couldn't care less what your or anyones elses political views are on here.
i like the people here regardless of their views on things.
im able to do that and not judge anyone.

im responding to this as nicely as i can as i dont know where you're coming from with the attitude and anger.

carry on........

DaveMoral - 5-27-2008 at 08:42 PM

I'm not sure that religion doesn't have a place in politics. You'd probably get worked up with Obama was Muslim. Lots of people have just on the rumor and because of his name. Let alone that guy that got elected to Congress, wanted to take his oath of office on the Qur'an and not the Bible because he doesn't believe in it and the right wing had a shit fit.

The seperation between Church and state is not, and never was, about keeping people's religious beliefs out of their politics... it's about not having one religion or denomination of one religion be the state religion and dictate what all others must teach and preach. Let alone allowing people of other religions or denominations within the same religion hold public office.

Taking into account what a man believes in as the foundation of his morality in the form of the ethics his religion teaches is crucial to considering a person's qualification for public office. Especially the highest office in the land. I mean, seriously, you want a guy in office whose religion teaches him that anyone that doesn't follow his religion are literally devils and subhuman? Seeing a person following along with such things can give you a hint into his character and his most deeply held beliefs. Or let's say a guy believes that its his job, as a good Christian, to do all he can to hasten the second coming of Jesus and attempt to fulfill prophecies from the book of Revelations about the Temple in Jerusalem being rebuilt or other such things that would only cause further discord? I think that's worthwhile stuff to know.

Besides, why get worked up about Rev Wright? The very sermon the dude was quoted out of context from he says "oppressors aren't just white" and goes on about the Egyptian tyrants and their enslavement of the Hebrews. I read the transcript of that sermon, and I found nothing objectionable. Take the shit out of context and away from the whole scope of the speech and you're going to provoke "Yikes, that negra hates whitey!" But shit, what's up with white America that most of us expect black people, or brown people or red people NOT to be pissed off about the benefit that white America has taken from the exploitation or decimation of their people and cultures? Fact of the matter is, we live in a white power nation and it shows. There is not equal opportunity for all here, and there are folks that are pissed off about the raw deal they got from a white power society.

gavin - 5-28-2008 at 08:57 AM

"if one continues to dwell in the past, one will have no future"

geoffrey p. gavin 5-28-08

BDx13 - 5-28-2008 at 09:51 AM

i would like to have the following tattooed on me:


"Yikes, that negra hates whitey!"
- Dawud Khuluq, 5-27-08


"if one continues to dwell in the past, one will have no future"
- geoffrey p. gavin, 5-28-08

DaveMoral - 5-28-2008 at 06:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
"if one continues to dwell in the past, one will have no future"

geoffrey p. gavin 5-28-08


That's true, but I don't think it applies to the situation on the ground.

Fact of the matter is... alot of people don't have the same advantages alot of others do. The disadvantage is disproportionately upon the shoulders of black Americans.

If people aren't pissed off about that it'll never change.

Big D, glad I could inspire a tattoo! Haha.

gavin - 5-28-2008 at 06:57 PM

yeah, i dont buy that at all

Voodoobillyman - 5-29-2008 at 01:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
yeah, i dont buy that at all


That pretty much sums up any possible response to that statement.

Voodoobillyman - 5-29-2008 at 01:35 AM

There is no United Cuacasion College Fund (no one offered me college tuition for the color of my skin, I would have to take out a loan, if they would give it to me, like alot of other disadvantaged white people)
no version of the NAACP for white Americans (run out into the streets and yell crackers, no one gives a shit. Run out into the street and yell niggers, you are a racist white devil)
We don't have laws that require businesses and civil services to hire a certain amount of white people based on equal opportunity
The argument that blacks are lopsidedly disadvantaged in this country dosen't hold much weight any longer. I am sorry if ignorance breeds ignorance and in the past things were not fair, but I think we as a society have more than fairly paid for that and continue to pay.

JawnDiablo - 5-29-2008 at 08:19 AM

Most of the black folk I encounter on a daily basis, whether it be in the work place, at my kid's school things or sports things, or just in public are too busy trying to be the embodiment of every negative stereotype ever created for them and could care less about anything except Roca Wear and new rims.

BDx13 - 5-29-2008 at 09:21 AM

^AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAAA

JawnDiablo - 5-29-2008 at 09:37 AM

I'm not even trying to be funny either.
You shoulda seen my son's spring concert.
You'd swear it was the BET fashion show.
And talk about rude.....

DaveMoral - 5-29-2008 at 05:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
There is no United Cuacasion College Fund (no one offered me college tuition for the color of my skin, I would have to take out a loan, if they would give it to me, like alot of other disadvantaged white people)
no version of the NAACP for white Americans (run out into the streets and yell crackers, no one gives a shit. Run out into the street and yell niggers, you are a racist white devil)
We don't have laws that require businesses and civil services to hire a certain amount of white people based on equal opportunity
The argument that blacks are lopsidedly disadvantaged in this country dosen't hold much weight any longer. I am sorry if ignorance breeds ignorance and in the past things were not fair, but I think we as a society have more than fairly paid for that and continue to pay.


Right, because the white man wasn't the oppressor for 500 years in America... so he should have a "Nation Association for the Advancement of White People" organization.

I'm just saying, you're talking some back asswards shit here. I understand where you're coming from and why, but it's pretty far off base as far as the realities on the ground. There's a reason why conditions in white ghettos are, objectively speaking, much better than non-white ghettos.

gavin - 5-29-2008 at 05:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaveMoral
Quote:
Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
There is no United Cuacasion College Fund (no one offered me college tuition for the color of my skin, I would have to take out a loan, if they would give it to me, like alot of other disadvantaged white people)
no version of the NAACP for white Americans (run out into the streets and yell crackers, no one gives a shit. Run out into the street and yell niggers, you are a racist white devil)
We don't have laws that require businesses and civil services to hire a certain amount of white people based on equal opportunity
The argument that blacks are lopsidedly disadvantaged in this country dosen't hold much weight any longer. I am sorry if ignorance breeds ignorance and in the past things were not fair, but I think we as a society have more than fairly paid for that and continue to pay.


Right, because the white man wasn't the oppressor for 500 years in America... so he should have a "Nation Association for the Advancement of White People" organization.

I'm just saying, you're talking some back asswards shit here. I understand where you're coming from and why, but it's pretty far off base as far as the realities on the ground. There's a reason why conditions in white ghettos are, objectively speaking, much better than non-white ghettos.




dave seriously i know you mean well and your intentions are good but man, you're looking at this all wrong.

fuck it
im not in the mood to get into all this actually

THORP - 5-29-2008 at 08:54 PM

I'm voting for John Joseph as long as he doesnt inplement a Krishna theocracy

you think Iran is gonna fuck with Bloodclot?

-THORP

Voodoobillyman - 5-30-2008 at 03:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaveMoral
Quote:
Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
There is no United Cuacasion College Fund (no one offered me college tuition for the color of my skin, I would have to take out a loan, if they would give it to me, like alot of other disadvantaged white people)
no version of the NAACP for white Americans (run out into the streets and yell crackers, no one gives a shit. Run out into the street and yell niggers, you are a racist white devil)
We don't have laws that require businesses and civil services to hire a certain amount of white people based on equal opportunity
The argument that blacks are lopsidedly disadvantaged in this country dosen't hold much weight any longer. I am sorry if ignorance breeds ignorance and in the past things were not fair, but I think we as a society have more than fairly paid for that and continue to pay.


Right, because the white man wasn't the oppressor for 500 years in America... so he should have a "Nation Association for the Advancement of White People" organization.

I'm just saying, you're talking some back asswards shit here. I understand where you're coming from and why, but it's pretty far off base as far as the realities on the ground. There's a reason why conditions in white ghettos are, objectively speaking, much better than non-white ghettos.


I just read an article by Bill Cohen (former SecDef for Clinton) and you and I embody the two opposing sides to this debate damn near perfectly. For the record I would like to state that your ideals are ass backwards to me as well. I say this realizing there is no way we will ever find a total agreement here, but there is always common ground to stand on. I am not blind, I understand the history behind it. I also am not blind to the seemingly one sided argument that puts white people at an immediate disadvantage for questioning just about anything going on. You question these things and you are dangerously close to being labeled a racist. I just don't see it that way. I also have no sympathy for the people that Diablo described who cry about unfair treatment all the while personifying every damn ignorant thing that is wrong with their culture. Stop being a fucking moron and do something remotely intelligent about it, rise above the stereotype and get a fucking education( the opportunity IS there, you have to WORK for it) don't avoid one because the system is against you and holds you down, thats a fucking cop out if I ever heard one. I was never handed anything, and I'm white, so what did the dominant white system get me? Nothing, I was born poor with the man not giving a shit about me or my plight just the same as the Puerto Ricans in the projects I grew up next to. I carved my own path through hard work and determination. Fuck historical excuses, they mean jack shit to me bro.

Voodoobillyman - 5-30-2008 at 03:46 AM

Oh, and white ghettos? I have seen the white equivilant of ghettos and it does not look much different from black ghettos. Hell they even put $500 dollar rims on a $50 dollar car the same way.

DaveMoral - 5-30-2008 at 11:14 PM

You know, it's not like I'm arguing that individuals have history as an excuse to lean on. They don't. But as a whole we of the descendents of the people in power... many of us no doubt have ancestors that were slaveowners at some point in our family trees... have to recognize the effects of 500 years of racial oppression. It's not like the repercussions aren't still being felt today. In fact, the very negative stereotypes we're talking about are the direct result of the demoralizing effects of oppression.

Shit, you gotta call shit into question when the very stereotypes we're dealing with... like the BET comment before... are a direct result of white executives getting ahold of one paritcular product within the larger hip hop culture and pushing that as the big thing. Gangsta rap. I remember when the hardest core shit was the likes of Public Enemy, and they were bringing some knowledge and empowerment. Then NWA came along rapping about criminality, and even they were doing some intelligent stuff from time to time. But they were the decline. The black community, in many ways, has moved backwards from where it was in the 60s. Close friends of mine that were black activists in those days tell me this. How much of it is part of the culture from centuries of oppression, and how much of what we see now is manufactured into the hip hop culture by major record labels and corporations that decide what artists to promote and what videos to play? Take BET for example... early on it was doing news shows and some intelligent stuff. Then the owner sold out to Viacom and BET became what it is today... booty videos 24/7.

It's no shocker though, one side feels slighted because they didn't get any breaks from the upper class and the other feels continually victimized because they've been the bottom of the scrap heap since the foundations of the country. Hostilities between the two are still in place because the upper class wants it that way... just like they didn't with indentured servants black and white. We, the working men and women of American(and ultimately the world), are keeping ourselves divided and letting ourselves be conquered by the douchebags with a disproportionate share in the wealth of our labor.

barc0debaby - 5-30-2008 at 11:24 PM

KILL WHITEY!


For real though, if your not black and you haven't grown up in a poor black community you have no grounds for opinion on black issues and black problems. Solutions have to come from within your own community whatever your ethnic background or economic disadvantages are or else they are meaningless victories. Racism is has deeply imbedded in this country and in any situation where you have such a diverse populous that is never going to change.

upyerbum - 5-31-2008 at 01:59 AM

Okay, folks, I be3en drinkin' all night, just back from the pub with a half ass I rish band playin,
heres where i'm AT, my great grandfather used to deliver milk by horse and horse attached wago in a part of town called aficville, he used to delive5r milk there cuz he wqas an irish nigger so i'm tired vof the fact that blasck kids here get paid to go to school and ii'm tired of a lot of shit but if i actually spoke my mind ......i'm juwt tired of laZY ASSS people with no respect.
i' probably am ra cist by most idealistic hiippy moron evaluations, buyt i understand respect.

Voodoobillyman - 5-31-2008 at 02:12 AM

It does and always has boiled down to a class issue, we can agree on that. The rest we can agree to disagree.

upyerbum - 5-31-2008 at 02:27 AM

If your not willing to work go fuck yourself, i'm tired of supporting people who don't want to better themselves or contribute. And that my friends, where i come from makes me a rac ist, ask the boy6s from here, they'll tell you how it is up or down here. Black crime is unreported in this town, period. That isa a concious decision made by the powers that be, and don't dare question it, trust me .Now I know there's some black folk on this board, so chime in, cuz we got to talk about this shit, reallly, we got to. If we don't talk about it stereotypes anfd the media will talk about it on our behalf. We gotta' spill our guts, man, im beenm drinkinb and thios took me like a hour to type.peaced

DaveMoral - 5-31-2008 at 10:09 AM

Where I'm at the only crime you hear about is in the black community.

I'm a firm believer in "God helps those who help themselves." That comes from the Qur'an. I'm also a firm believer in the concept of "give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for the rest of his life."

The sad reality is... poor and working class whites take heat for their stereotypical points of view on the black community because they've been the last bastion of blatant racism for decades now. And the people at the top of the food chain have been using that to their advantage since before chattel slavery was the sole form of free labor.

I'll be straight with you, I'm not sure just what effect Affirmative Action has had that is entirely positive. I mean, there're some who have been brought up to a middle class level through that program... but the trade off is that it's created more resentment and racial division. You gotta question that, too. Certainly not an easy issue.

Voodoobillyman - 6-2-2008 at 03:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaveMoral
Where I'm at the only crime you hear about is in the black community.

I'm a firm believer in "God helps those who help themselves." That comes from the Qur'an. I'm also a firm believer in the concept of "give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for the rest of his life."

The sad reality is... poor and working class whites take heat for their stereotypical points of view on the black community because they've been the last bastion of blatant racism for decades now. And the people at the top of the food chain have been using that to their advantage since before chattel slavery was the sole form of free labor.

I'll be straight with you, I'm not sure just what effect Affirmative Action has had that is entirely positive. I mean, there're some who have been brought up to a middle class level through that program... but the trade off is that it's created more resentment and racial division. You gotta question that, too. Certainly not an easy issue.



Yup, never will be an easy issue either. We as a species do not have the enlightenment to get over this shit. It is what it is.

random - 6-2-2008 at 03:31 AM

Mostly just bumping the thread so that I respond to some shit later when I haven't been drinking and taking some pain meds after this surgery, but I'll throw something out there now...

Have any of you noticed how the comments about affirmative action (AA) immediately took on the tone of "black vs. white"? AA also applies to other non-white racial minorities (and Hispanics, which only matters if you read survey data that separates out white non-Hispanic and white Hispanic) and women. Just pointing out a bit of the ingrained, unnoticed racism that we're all guilty of to some extent.

Anyway, I'll probably post a long rant tomorrow that nobody will ever read.

DaveMoral - 6-3-2008 at 09:18 PM

I think that has alot to do with the tension between black and white being like the headlining act while all other minorities are sort of like billed lower. If you get my analogy.