barrel of a gun...philly peeps esp. check this out

gavin - 9-24-2009 at 09:30 AM

JawnDiablo - 9-24-2009 at 05:51 PM

Geoff, howd you hear bout this?

random - 9-24-2009 at 06:02 PM

I should never comment on these threads, but they occasionally come up...

Here's reality, plain and simple.

Fact 1: Supporters of Mumia Abu-Jamal are never willing to entertain the possibility that he's guilty of murder.

Fact 2: Opponents of Mumia Abu-Jamal are never willing to examine the circumstances of his trial - and subsequent appeals - and what they mean for the criminal justice system we're supposed to have faith in.

Everyone should care about both (i) what really happened and (ii) the criminal justice proceedings that followed the night in question. Both aspects are far more important for American society than anyone seems to give a shit about.

That film looks like a serious fucking hack job falling under "Fact 2." The ones that fall under "Fact 1" are just as bad, but that doesn't mean either is any good.

gavin - 9-24-2009 at 09:11 PM

oh believe me, i have read a pretty fair amount from both sides
bottom line to me is, he did it.
is there a bunch of shit involved?
for sure.
but he did it.

gavin - 9-24-2009 at 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juandiablo
Geoff, howd you hear bout this?

someone posted it on facebook or sumthin

DaveMoral - 9-25-2009 at 02:29 AM

I'm keeping my nose outta this one. All I have to say is do a re-trial and let's make sure it's all on the up and up. Problem is, he's not going to get a fair shake in a Philly court so that kind of rules out a re-trial in Philadelphia. No one is going to believe it would be possible, at least no one on the "innocent" side of the divide. I don't think alot of Philly people, especially white people in Philly, really give a damn if the trial was a load of shit with a great deal of suspicious goings on. Nevermind that the Philly PD was perhaps more corrupt than the LAPD in those days, either.

REV.PAULIE - 9-25-2009 at 05:04 AM

even better question...

how did you post a video on this thing?

oh,and to all doubters - he friggin' did it...get over it,he's guilty...just as I would be,if I shot a cop,or anyone for that matter...

JawnDiablo - 9-25-2009 at 05:54 AM

and if he didn't do it, which he did anyway, he sure as fuck would know who did.

gavin - 9-25-2009 at 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
I'm keeping my nose outta this one. All I have to say is do a re-trial and let's make sure it's all on the up and up. Problem is, he's not going to get a fair shake in a Philly court so that kind of rules out a re-trial in Philadelphia. No one is going to believe it would be possible, at least no one on the "innocent" side of the divide. I don't think alot of Philly people, especially white people in Philly, really give a damn if the trial was a load of shit with a great deal of suspicious goings on. Nevermind that the Philly PD was perhaps more corrupt than the LAPD in those days, either.

so they singled out mummia and oput the killing on him?
for what?
cuz he hated whitey and was a m.o.v.e. supporter?(which by the way is a joke. anyone supporting that shit is a joke in and of itself)
i've actually dealt with ramona africa on more than one occassion
and she was actually very nice to me and even said hello to me in the gallery once(the one and only time i have ever been in there in all my years in philadelphia)
but the m.o.v.e. deal and anyone supporting that nonsense is laughable to me, including mummia.

he is the wrong guy to be the poster child of the anti-death penalty movement.

someone made this point recently.....
if they converted his sentence to life as opposed to the death penalty, none of these "hollywood" fucks or white boys who think they are supporting some cause would go away with the quickness and you would never hear a peep from em again.

this whole case got wrapped up in some bullshit.

bottom line is....he killed a young cop doing his shitty night shift in a hood that, at the time was a fuckin shithole and got killed cuz he stopped the wrong guy goi9ng the wrong way down a one way street(mummias brother)
faulkner got into a hassle with the brother, mummia was parked across the street and ran over and shot him...then stood over him and shot him again at close range.

fuck him
fuck the people who support that shit
and fuck any "cause" that gets wrapped up in not looking at the real story and instead focus on all the smoke and mirrors of it.

gavin - 9-25-2009 at 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by REV.PAULIE
even better question...

how did you post a video on this thing?

oh,and to all doubters - he friggin' did it...get over it,he's guilty...just as I would be,if I shot a cop,or anyone for that matter...

paul, copy the embedded code from a video on youtube.
click the "insert a hyperlink" button on top of where we type
paste it there
click it again so it shows up in this box deal.
that is what works for me

DaveMoral - 9-25-2009 at 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gavin

Quote:

You know as well as I do how fucked up the justice system is in this country, and at the time especially Philadelphia. You also know there was precedent for paranoia RE: the Philly police at the time this went down. I'm not even disputing to you whether or not Mumia did it. Daniel Faulkner worked for a shitty organization with a track record of brutalizing black people, and Mumia Abu-Jamal was fed up with it and undoubtably killed Faulkner in defense of his brother... most likely with the very legitimate feeling that his brother could be seriously injured or killed, and that he and Mumia would have literally no recourse because the system was stacked against them and all black people. I, personally, can't fault his logic and I'm not stupid enough to say that all cops are bad or that all cops are good all the time. Faulkner may well have been a damn fine and usually polite cop, but he was surrounded by douchebags in that department.

Whatever you feel about MOVE you can't possibly support the Philly PD's bombing of their house and the subsequent destruction of the entire neighborhood.

gavin - 9-25-2009 at 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral

Quote:

Originally posted by gavin

Quote:

the burning of that block of osage ave. was not meant to happen that way.
did the police fuck up?
yes, big time.

lemme ask you...what would you have done to deal with m.o.v.e. and their horseshit in that neighborhood?
and how would you have felt living next door to them?
an org. with a history of violence and a history for trying to kill cops.

mummias brother drove the wrong way down 13th street at 3 in the morning
faulkner stopped him.
pretty standard so far.
hassle started.
whoever started it, i dont know.
mummia, who was across the street, shot falkner.
then, stood over him and shot him dead.

pretty cut and dry to me bro.

whatever "reason" he may have had for doing so, bottom line is he did it and killed someone in cold blood.

again, fuck him, m.o.v.e. and the people who are fooled by this into thinking it's something that its not.

JawnDiablo - 9-25-2009 at 11:12 AM

I could see the smoke from the move fire from our back yard .....
fuck them and all who back them.

necrobutcher - 9-25-2009 at 01:53 PM

28 years later and this thing can still get people's blood pumping.

I once heard rumors that the MOVE leftovers were armed and stated that if Mumia is executed they would launch attacks on Philadelphia. Can anyone confirm/deny that?

gavin - 9-25-2009 at 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by necrobutcher
28 years later and this thing can still get people's blood pumping.

I once heard rumors that the MOVE leftovers were armed and stated that if Mumia is executed they would launch attacks on Philadelphia. Can anyone confirm/deny that?

sounds like something they would say

Discipline - 9-25-2009 at 02:23 PM

In my opinion, he did it and should suffer the consequences of his actions. He might have felt justified in doing it, and believed he was doing the right thing, but it all comes down to the fact that he shot a cop for doing his job.

DaveMoral - 9-26-2009 at 01:14 AM

I should clarify, I wasn't trying to justify killing Faulkner... simply that it happened in a city with a long track record of the police using disproportionate amounts of force against primarily black people.

gavin - 9-26-2009 at 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
I should clarify, I wasn't trying to justify killing Faulkner... simply that it happened in a city with a long track record of the police using disproportionate amounts of force against primarily black people.

so?
changes nothing.
he killed daniel faulkner.
stood over him and shot him at close range.
period.
end of story.

and mummia was a pretty well known racist as well.
kind of ironic that a supposed racist system came down on him when he himself was just as big of one.

gavin - 9-26-2009 at 01:29 AM

oh and by the way, i do in theory support the bombing of the house.
there was a bunker that they had built on the roof that held explosives.
they (move0 took that neighborhood hostage for a looooong time.
when the cops finally did something about it and tried to evict them, it became a stand off.
with their history of violence and shooting cops, and with the knowldge that there was weapons in the house that they were hardly afriad to use....what choice was there to get them out?
did it go really wrong? of course it did...
but what options were there at that point is my question to you?

gavin - 9-26-2009 at 01:40 AM

and dave....its easy to make a statement like that
esp. when it works for your way of thinking.
if i said "muslims have a long history of violence against blah blah blah" you'd be the first to call me out on that, and rightly so...
this works with all things dave
even things you may not take to heart as much
your statement is a generalization based on the reputation of the city at the time
hearsay and handed down stories, some of which i'm sure are true
but to make a statement like that as fact, is just not a fair thing to do.
and even bringing it up in a weird way sort of seems like you are trying to say that there may be a justification in this case where there clearly is not.

Discipline - 9-26-2009 at 10:31 AM

My other argument for Mumia being guilty is this; the cops wouldn't have purposely gone after the wrong guy. When somebody kills a cop you can be damn sure they want to get the guy who did it so they can get a measure of revenge. They aren't going to arrest somebody innocent when it comes to a cop killer.

DaveMoral - 9-26-2009 at 12:37 PM

Like I said, I don't really want to debate the case as such. There's no point, and quite frankly... I don't really have much of a stance on it anymore. All I'm saying is, I can understand why it would've went down the way it allegedly did. What I do wonder about is whether the furor with which Mumia is met is more about justice for Daniel Faulkner and his family, or Mumia's politics before and after the incident. I suspect the latter, if only because similar furor and vitriol is not targeted more recent cop killers in Philadelphia or even at the MOVE members imprisoned for the death of Officer Ramp. Plus the circumstances of the initial trial. It was clearly much more political than criminal in prosecution. And it is for this reason that I think a new trial would be in order, to prosecute on criminal lines and avoid the political as much as possible so as not to taint the proceedings with "he wrote these 'kill the pigs' articles when he was a teenager in the Black Panther Party" as justification for Mumia's motivation behind the killing.

As to the MOVE bombing, I've never seen any evidence that the "bunkers" were supposedly full of explosives and neither did a US federal court or Goode's MOVE Commission/PSIC. In fact, that federal jury found that the city violated MOVE's constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure. There's no doubt that MOVE was a loopy organization and that they were pissing off their neighbors. Though "holding the neighborhood hostage" is a bit extreme. They were certainly guilty of keeping filth around the property and disturbing the peace.

At any rate, Mumia's going to spend the rest of his life in jail and he's likely never to get executed because the death penalty basically only exists "on the books" in Pennasylvania these days.

That said, I'm checking out of this discussion as I don't really have a stake in it anymore.

gavin - 9-27-2009 at 12:32 AM

i'd like to see you live next door to that move bullshit and tell me that the people in that area werent held hostage.

DaveMoral - 9-27-2009 at 02:55 AM

Hostage taking and shit smell and annoying megaphone profanity are very different things.

gavin - 9-27-2009 at 11:05 AM

you know very well what i mean dave.
people trying to live their lives and raise their families having to deal with their fucking bullshit day and night.
and if you know that neighborhood at all, which i do, esp at the time these were people who couldnt just up and move somewhere else.
so they had no choice but to deal with move and their nonsense.
having to live day in and day out with it.
and being threatened by move members on top of it.(look it up. im sure its somewhere. i remember seeing footage of an old black dude who said he was told he would be killed if he had anything else to say about what they were doing)

this is what i mean by held hostage in their own homes.

sometimes i dont understand super far left people.
i dont get how you can downplay something like that
i know alot of people who do the same sort of thing when it comes to issues like this
it gets so clouded in what a progressive person is "supposed" to think that they lose sight of the facts of some of thins shit.
im pretty far left leaning myself but i cant allow the facts of these type of things to escape me and pretend all this shit is somehow ok because thats the stance im supposed to take.
fuck that.
i call em like i see em.
and mummia and the move deal is all shit.

JawnDiablo - 9-27-2009 at 05:47 PM

I just think that all the far left do gooders would have someone better to get behind and support than these assholes.
My aunt lived in UD just across the creek back then and could hear the fuckin megaphone blaring from her porch all day, all night.
they had a fortified bunker, and would run across the rooftops of the adjoined homes. they ate stray dogs and shit in buckets in the basement.
It was a black mayor and black police chief that gave the orders to drop the concussion bomb. Like Gavin said, i know that hood and it wasnt like the people there had the means to get up and move. their shit goes back as far as the 70s when they had another house in Powelton Village. Fuck em. I'm all for siding with the underdogs and fighting the system this that and the next thing, but its just hard to comprehend anyone taking these shtheads side an defending anything they did. but who am i right? just a jerk with a fridge ful of beer and a mind full of anger...

DaveMoral - 9-27-2009 at 10:36 PM

For me it's not about defending MOVE so much as saying "the city fucked up big time there and handled the situation all wrong." I mean, they thought it was a good idea to drop a fucking bomb of C4 and Torvex or whatever on a residence in the middle of a neighborhood with no consultations from explosives experts or anything like that. Then let the shit burn for half an hour. Even in '85 there were police agencies from around the country that were openly scratching their heads as to why the Philly PD and mayor handled that situation like they did. Maybe it actually did have something to do with Goode being black and the police chief being black, felt like that they had to show they weren't coddling MOVE or something. All in all, it led to a course of action that was foolish even from a police point of view.

Also, to call me far left is pretty far from the mark. I do have views that you guys would consider far right as well. All in all, I'd say I'm pretty middle of the road as far as that goes. I'm a man of many contradictions.