Todd, serenity, and all us other affected saps of the world

BDx13 - 6-29-2005 at 11:18 PM

This is in response to several posts spread across a few recent threads.
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First off, nobody is getting banned. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion as to which act of aggression ranks as history's most important/genocidal/ruthless/creative/whatever. Obviously, it's a very emotional topic, but this board has a long history of passionate debate, so this shouldn't be anything new.

On one hand, Todd, you're absolutely right. You and I and a few others here experienced 9/11 first hand and will never be the same having done so.

And serenity, I understand your point, too. As Americans, we don't always realize that people in other counties are inundated with news programs about what America is up to day to day. And I'd imagine that can get old, especially when those countries have their own histories, issues and tragedies to deal with. And imagine the flipside (and I'm not trying to be a dick, but)... How often do you think news from Sweden is covered here?

So where does that leave us...? serenity is especially moved by the tragedies of WWII because of his family's experiences as a result of the war. Todd is affected by 9/11 because he stood there and watched 3,000 people, friends included, die. I agree, these things suck it big time. Personally? I'm most offended by the genocide that is currently happening in Africa. Why? Because no one is doing a damn thing about it.

Either way, I think we all get it. But I also think we all know that neither of us is more right than the other. Clearly, there is a lot of terrible shit going on in the world, and it is collectively fucking us all up in one way or another.

I love healthy debate, but now I'm fucking exhausted. Todd, can I get some of those pills?

One other thing...

BDx13 - 6-29-2005 at 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by serenity
because you cant honestly say that those people killed in wtc were your friends, your family or whatever, just because they were americans.

I'm not trying to be a dick (again), but please be careful with stuff like this. For as many people that live this city, New York became a very small town on September 11. I honestly don't know a single person in this city who DIDN'T lose a friend or family member that day.

Todd - 6-30-2005 at 01:48 AM

Big Duane, This really is a cool forum. My favorite parts having little to do with music and I like to think of this as my place to go and hang out and communicate the way that I'm most comfortable (at home using a computer).

My point was always that we are moved most by what we relate to best. For me, this city and this country were best summed up by the firemen running into the fire, by the volunteers who gave blood, made food, etc. That is what I like to think about when I think of the US. I will never forget the flyers that covered every wall of the city, with pictures of loved ones, friends, and coworkers who had the misfortune of being in those buildings on that day. I'll never forget how those flyers that had a spark of hope became grim reminders of the dead. Their faces were everywhere.

I like to be sarcastic and break balls as much as anyone on this forum but this is a case where I have to say that if you weren't there, you just don't know. Like I said before, my America isn't Bush, Republicans, and the religious right, its ordinary people doing extraordinary things and when I see those actions diminished in any way, I go fucking berserk. Now, about them pills...

GabeTexasGAMC - 6-30-2005 at 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Duane & Todd
pills...

Fucking crackheads.

JawnDiablo - 6-30-2005 at 07:32 AM

where am da pills yo?

Discipline - 6-30-2005 at 01:34 PM

Guys, don't go emo on us now.

bystanderfanzine.com - 6-30-2005 at 01:35 PM

flip flops

BDx13 - 6-30-2005 at 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bystanderfanzine.com
flip flops

exactly.

GabeTexasGAMC - 6-30-2005 at 01:56 PM

HAHAHAHHHA!

bystanderfanzine.com - 6-30-2005 at 02:03 PM

Ok, now I have to be serious.

My undergrad is in history; history is probably the most important thing in my life. I live for it. This has been such a sticky subject for the last two years, but the truth is until the American people get their heads out of the sand we are never going to wake up.

The Trade Centers true significance is that it was attack on a major empire on its own soil. Compared to the bombings of Dresden, Hitler?s extermination of the Jews, Stalin?s political purges, Israel?s Zionist land push and a million other events? the death toll and human suffering is somewhat insignificant. We lost 4,000 of our people, how many civilians died every day in the Congo? Fuck how many Iraq citizens died the first few days of bombing in Baghdad? How many children around the world die from cancer caused by the depleted uranium in our ammunition?

The fact of the matter is the world doesn?t care; the world deals with events like this on a daily basis, often as a result of our foreign policy. Ask the families the Chilean?s who were rounded up, tutored and killed with the help of our CIA, just because they voted in a free election for the wrong person. It was more then 4,000. Ask the Armenians about how the Turkish rapped and killed with the help of our CIA. America is like the kid in the emergency room with a cut complaining to the guy who is having a heart attack.

Everybody keeps asking why a bunch of rich Saudi kids flew planes into buildings full of innocent people, but no one wants to hear the answer. Americans need to stop thinking we are the end all be this entire world, the fact is our comfort is the expense of the rest of the world. You want to stop terrorism, ride your fucking bike. Every time you fill up your car your funding terrorism.

Also, check the tag on your Never Forget 9/11 and America the beautiful shirts, I bet they say made in Mexico. How many kids live in poverty in our country because jobs are out sourced? That to me is a tragedy.

One final note before I get attacked. WTC was my train stop on the A. I took it daily to get to work and school, I went to Pace. My sister watched the planes hit, she had a case at the Federal Court Building. She had to walk 40 blocks home, helping people along the way. My brother-in-law?s building was hit with debris and luckily he was home. I thank god every day I did not lose a loved one, I know people who did. My sister and I both lost people we went to High School and College with. NYC was my second home growing up, and I love that city. I am so sick of hicks and idiots marching around in WTC shirts and waving their flags and at the same time hating the ?liberal big city people.? Seems like people only support NYC if it has to do with 9/11 or the Yankees.

If you want to support NYC because of 9/11 ask your fucking congressmen why North Dakota gets more money per person for anti terrorism then NYC. Ask your congress person why the federal housing vouchers to get people to re populate the area ended up being taxable, fucking everyone who got them. Ask you Congressmen why the Vice president made it a personal mission to lower funding for NYC after 9/11.Why aren?t we invading Saudi Arabia, a place that funds terrorism and is more oppressive then any other Middle Eastern country? If there is one place freedom needs to be spread too, it is there.

Who the fuck cares what some washed up hairdresser writes on the wall of some fucking dressing room. We are so busy fighting over the word liberal and conservative, that an answer to all these problems is never going to be found. Lets fight with each other more, that?s what the Bush?s and the Bin Laddens want. They will keep killing people and we will keep arguing, buying their oil and killing the earth.

serenity - 6-30-2005 at 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BIG DUANE
This is in response to several posts spread across a few recent threads.
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And serenity, I understand your point, too. As Americans, we don't always realize that people in other counties are inundated with news programs about what America is up to day to day. And I'd I'magine that can get old, especially when those countries have their own histories, issues and tragedies to deal with. And I'magine the flipside (and I'm not trying to be a dick, but)... How often do you think news from Sweden is covered here?

So where does that leave us...? serenity is especially moved by the tragedies of WWII because of his family's experiences as a result of the war.

I'm not sure if i get your point here, but ill try to understand. what you're saying is that you, Americans, forgets that other countries don't report as much of the us as you do. is that correct? well, we got a pretty big coverage of what is going over there. of course it not nearly as big as yours, but still pretty good for a country which has fewer citizens than all of NYC.

about your coverage of our news, the only thing i can think of that you would cover was 9/11 2003, when our foreign-minister got murdered. apart form that, i don't believe that you cover much of our news, no.

now to the other part of what you wrote. i actually meant that i got personally moved by the war in Yugoslavia where NATO and the us bombed civilians, not WWII.

BDx13 - 6-30-2005 at 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by serenity
well, we got a pretty big coverage of what is going over there. of course it not nearly as big as yours, but still pretty good for a country which has fewer citizens than all of NYC.

apart form that, i don't believe that you cover much of our news, no.

that is exactly what i was getting at. other countries in the world receive a disporportionate amount of news regarding what america is doing because this country has its fingers in everybody else's business. my point was only that that must become frustrating having to hear about "america this" and "george bush that" every day, when you don't even live in america. i think bystander's point is close to what i'm trying to say, and a little more eloquent - "The fact of the matter is the world doesn?t care; the world deals with events like this on a daily basis, often as a result of our foreign policy".

but really, the main point that i was trying to get across is that i see no reason to argue over which atrocity is the most atrocious (how'd ya like that one!), because like todd said, we're each going to be more personally tied to one or another for different reasons.

CR83 - 6-30-2005 at 04:05 PM

America, Fuck Yeah! I'm actually listening to that song right now. I can't imagine how annoying it is for other countries to be innundated with info about the U.S.

This board is awesome because there seems to be very little drama and BS. The B9'er went down hill and that's why I visit here.

I like reading other people's opinion's even if they are different. Let's get back to talking about HC and puppies.

BDx13 - 6-30-2005 at 04:24 PM

We're working hard to keep this board as the type of place where you can go and discuss and debate topics and not receive a written pile on by people who think different. And I don't mean Apple Computer users!

BDx13 - 6-30-2005 at 04:42 PM

serenity, if you haven't seen "America, Fuck Yeah!", check it out.
http://www.loveit-or-leaveit.com/flash/americafuckyeah.html

newbreedbrian - 6-30-2005 at 06:30 PM

nicely said bystander. that's essentially the point, no one wants to hear the answer of why it happened. it's much easier to blame them extremist middle easteners hatin freedom and leave it at that. you can only be a global bully for so long before someone strikes back. none of this is meant to be insensitive. my heart goes out to ny'ers and anyone that was there and lost someone in that disaster, i can only imagine. those people were innocent and in no way deserved that. bystander is right though, the rest of the world deals with some pretty horrible shit and no one gives a shit. look at rwanda, el salvador, palestine, congo, etc etc. i don't know why people can't seperate pride in who you are and where you come from with blind jingoism and complete faith in a leader who doesn't give a shit about you, let alone anyone else. oh yea, i forgot, anyone who thinks for themselves is a communist or (gasp!) a liberal.

serenity - 6-30-2005 at 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BIG DUANE
serenity, if you haven't seen "America, Fuck Yeah!", check it out.
http://www.loveit-or-leaveit.com/flash/americafuckyeah.html

http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=9985 i like this one alot better.

JawnDiablo - 6-30-2005 at 09:13 PM

yards beer is wonderful. it is made in philly..theres no place more american than philly....in fact i will drink one for each of you...wait a minute that had nothing to do with anything....but its still some good brew

BDx13 - 6-30-2005 at 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by serenity
http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=9985 i like this one alot better.

oh, man, that is a good one. i especially like the hulksters sunglasses and the floating american indian heads.

BDx13 - 6-30-2005 at 11:32 PM

yuengling

GabeTexasGAMC - 6-30-2005 at 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BIG DUANE
yuengling

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

BDx13 - 6-30-2005 at 11:55 PM

do you get that in texas, or did you just experience it while on the road? that shit goes down SO easy. know what? i'm gonna go get me one.

KyleOz - 6-30-2005 at 11:59 PM

Had a few Yuenglings earlier.

Another beer I like drinking is Leinenkugel Honey Weis.

GabeTexasGAMC - 7-1-2005 at 01:54 AM

had it on tour... b-more it was only 1.50 a cup draft!
AAAAAAAH my mouth waters...

moron - 7-1-2005 at 10:38 AM

Im gonna miss Yuengling with I eventually leave this state. God damn that's a great beer. Cheap and great.

Ungodly - 7-1-2005 at 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bystanderfanzine.com
Ok, now I have to be serious.

My undergrad is in history; history is probably the most important thing in my life. I live for it. This has been such a sticky subject for the last two years, but the truth is until the American people get their heads out of the sand we are never going to wake up.

The Trade Centers true significance is that it was attack on a major empire on its own soil. Compared to the bombings of Dresden, Hitler?s extermination of the Jews, Stalin?s political purges, Israel?s Zionist land push and a million other events? the death toll and human suffering is somewhat insignificant. We lost 4,000 of our people, how many civilians died every day in the Congo? Fuck how many Iraq citizens died the first few days of bombing in Baghdad? How many children around the world die from cancer caused by the depleted uranium in our ammunition?

The fact of the matter is the world doesn?t care; the world deals with events like this on a daily basis, often as a result of our foreign policy. Ask the families the Chilean?s who were rounded up, tutored and killed with the help of our CIA, just because they voted in a free election for the wrong person. It was more then 4,000. Ask the Armenians about how the Turkish rapped and killed with the help of our CIA. America is like the kid in the emergency room with a cut complaining to the guy who is having a heart attack.

Everybody keeps asking why a bunch of rich Saudi kids flew planes into buildings full of innocent people, but no one wants to hear the answer. Americans need to stop thinking we are the end all be this entire world, the fact is our comfort is the expense of the rest of the world. You want to stop terrorism, ride your fucking bike. Every time you fill up your car your funding terrorism.

Also, check the tag on your Never Forget 9/11 and America the beautiful shirts, I bet they say made in Mexico. How many kids live in poverty in our country because jobs are out sourced? That to me is a tragedy.

One final note before I get attacked. WTC was my train stop on the A. I took it daily to get to work and school, I went to Pace. My sister watched the planes hit, she had a case at the Federal Court Building. She had to walk 40 blocks home, helping people along the way. My brother-in-law?s building was hit with debris and luckily he was home. I thank god every day I did not lose a loved one, I know people who did. My sister and I both lost people we went to High School and College with. NYC was my second home growing up, and I love that city. I am so sick of hicks and idiots marching around in WTC shirts and waving their flags and at the same time hating the ?liberal big city people.? Seems like people only support NYC if it has to do with 9/11 or the Yankees.

If you want to support NYC because of 9/11 ask your fucking congressmen why North Dakota gets more money per person for anti terrorism then NYC. Ask your congress person why the federal housing vouchers to get people to re populate the area ended up being taxable, fucking everyone who got them. Ask you Congressmen why the Vice president made it a personal mission to lower funding for NYC after 9/11.Why aren?t we invading Saudi Arabia, a place that funds terrorism and is more oppressive then any other Middle Eastern country? If there is one place freedom needs to be spread too, it is there.

Who the fuck cares what some washed up hairdresser writes on the wall of some fucking dressing room. We are so busy fighting over the word liberal and conservative, that an answer to all these problems is never going to be found. Lets fight with each other more, that?s what the Bush?s and the Bin Laddens want. They will keep killing people and we will keep arguing, buying their oil and killing the earth.

Holy cow. Exactly. I could never articulate it that well.

A lot of people have argued the "appropriate" reaction on 9/11, too. I was in an office full of regular people who don't question very much of anything and get their only news and political debate from regular tv. Everyone was in complete disbelief and insisting it was an accident till the 2nd plane hit except for me. Since I'd started educating myself on politics, I had always wondered why more things like that hadn't happened already. That doesn't mean I wasn't horrified, worried that someone I knew was there that I didn't know about, that even my family on the island was ok.