The abortion ban begins...

XHonusWagnerX - 3-8-2006 at 07:37 PM

PIERRE, S.D. - Gov. Mike Rounds signed legislation Monday banning nearly all abortions in South Dakota, setting up a court fight aimed at challenging the 1973 U.S. Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion.

The bill would make it a crime for doctors to perform an abortion unless the procedure was necessary to save the woman?s life. It would make no exception for cases of rape or incest.

Planned Parenthood, which operates the state?s only abortion clinic, in Sioux Falls, has pledged to challenge the measure in court.

Rounds issued a written statement saying he expects the law will be tied up in court for years and will not take effect unless the U.S. Supreme Court upholds it.

?In the history of the world, the true test of a civilization is how well people treat the most vulnerable and most helpless in their society. The sponsors and supporters of this bill believe that abortion is wrong because unborn children are the most vulnerable and most helpless persons in our society. I agree with them,? Rounds said in the statement.

The governor declined all media requests for interviews Monday.

The Legislature passed the bill last month after supporters argued that the recent appointment of conservative justices John Roberts and Samuel Alito have made the U.S. Supreme Court more likely to overturn Roe v. Wade.

?This is proof-positive that Gov. Rounds cares more about politics than about the health and safety of women in South Dakota,? said Sarah Stoesz, president and CEO of Planned Parenthood regional operations for Minnesota, North Dakota, and South Dakota, said in a statement Monday. ?In every state, women, their families, and their doctors should be making private, personal health care decisions ? not politicians.?

South Dakota?s abortion ban is to take effect July 1, but a federal judge is likely to suspend it during a legal challenge.

Abortion opponents donating money
Rounds has said abortion opponents already are offering money to help the state pay legal bills for the anticipated court challenge. Lawmakers said an anonymous donor has pledged $1 million to defend the ban, and the Legislature set up a special account to accept donations for legal fees.

Under the new law, doctors could get up to five years in prison for performing an illegal abortion.

Rounds previously issued a technical veto of a similar bill passed two years ago because it would have wiped out all existing restrictions on abortion while the bill was tied up for years in a court challenge.

The statement he issued Monday noted that this year?s bill was written to make sure existing restrictions will be enforced during the legal battle. Current state law sets increasingly stringent restrictions on abortions as pregnancy progresses. After the 24th week, the procedure is allowed only to protect the woman?s health and safety.

About 800 abortions are performed each year in South Dakota. Planned Parenthood has said other women cross state lines to reach clinics.

ABORTION BAN

Discipline - 3-8-2006 at 07:39 PM

Gee, I hope the govenor really wants to bring back the old back-alley abortion business.

BDx13 - 3-8-2006 at 09:30 PM

i can't help but feeling that this is all part of much greater plan that has been in the works for years.

moron - 3-8-2006 at 09:38 PM

I wouldnt doubt that Duane.

I heard about this a little while ago on the evening news I think. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

moforn - 3-8-2006 at 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by moron
I wouldnt doubt that Duane.

yeah, with Roberts and Alito on the supreme court this could very well survive appeals and overturn Roe v. Wade, scary stuff.

XnMeX - 3-8-2006 at 10:15 PM

I am personally against abortions except with Medical issues or rape. Thats it. Anything else, it is the persons decision they made to have sex so they (and their child) should have to live with it. People need to learn how to keep their fucking legs shut nowwadays or use protection (and use it properly).

I also think in NO cirumstances that partial birth abortion should be done..... For those that don't know, it is basically the woman giving birth to the baby but the head is still inside when they kill it. Making it "partial birth" and not murder.

DaveMoral - 3-8-2006 at 11:49 PM

I tend to agree with XnMeX... I guess this particular case doesn't bother me at all... then again, I'm a guy and my wife agrees with me. I still hate the right wing though. So I do tend to think anything that further consolidates their stranglehold on the country/world is a bad thing... just because I don't doubt that if they can manipulate shit far enough in their favor and stage enough "terror attacks" they'll be putting Muslim asses in camps ala The Seige.

clevohardcore - 3-9-2006 at 03:17 AM

Abortion is wrong and so is Government.

XHonusWagnerX - 3-9-2006 at 06:47 AM

I just dont like the government taking away more 'freedoms'.

I am totally pro-choice because there are to many people in the world that cant take care of themselves. If a women or a couple can barely take care of themselves and they have a child then how can the child be cared for?

I agree that people should be responsible and either NOT have sex or properly use protection, but unfortunantly thats not going to happen. People should also drive at safe speeds, eat healthy, live with in their means etc. None of that stuff is going to happen either.

Its a fucked up world!

XnMeX - 3-9-2006 at 08:45 AM

But how hard is it to pop a pill each day? My gf has been doing it for over 4 years no with no problem. I don't know if we EVER plan to have kids, but if she gets pregers, we are keeping the kid and will be happy with the kid as well.

BKT - 3-9-2006 at 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
I tend to agree with XnMeX... I guess this particular case doesn't bother me at all... then again, I'm a guy and my wife agrees with me. I still hate the right wing though. So I do tend to think anything that further consolidates their stranglehold on the country/world is a bad thing... just because I don't doubt that if they can manipulate shit far enough in their favor and stage enough "terror attacks" they'll be putting Muslim asses in camps ala The Seige.

I tend to think that people like you and XnMeX should mind their on biz. and not try and make life decesions for people that they have never met. I'll make my own mistakes and or life choices and you make yours. Never been involved in an abortion, have known people that had them and as far as I can see it was none of your biz then nor is it now.

MM.

XHonusWagnerX - 3-9-2006 at 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by XnMeX
But how hard is it to pop a pill each day? My gf has been doing it for over 4 years no with no problem. I don't know if we EVER plan to have kids, but if she gets pregers, we are keeping the kid and will be happy with the kid as well.

Its not that hard to take a pill, but what it the pill doesnt work and the girl is 17? Thats the kind of thing that could potentially ruin someones life.

Ive never been in the situation so I dont know what I would want to do, but I really feel like the government should have no say in it. I view it as a choice because to me its not a child at conception.

What is your opinion on 'the morning after pill'?

XnMeX - 3-9-2006 at 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by XHonusWagnerX
Its not that hard to take a pill, but what it the pill doesnt work and the girl is 17? Thats the kind of thing that could potentially ruin someones life.

What is your opinion on 'the morning after pill'?

Either way it would "ruin" a life. This world is total shit is all the debate comes down to. Where a 15 year old can kill a baby but an ederly person in pain doesn't have the right to kill themselve.

And don't give me the BS of "It's just a clump of cells.... A baby takes form at a VERY early stage and being pregnant is making a life, plain and simple. If you stop the process of "making a life" then what would you call that?.... ENDING a life. I don't even see how the baby / embryo debate of the whole situation can even hold it's weight.

Pregnancy = process of making life.

Abortion = the process of ending it.

Also, to MM about "How can you make peoples decissions, see above. A pregnant girl makes the dcision for an abortion, she is making a decision for the unborn. I also love to think of it this way.... ANYONE of us could have been an abortion. The person who cured polio, inventer the wheel, invented electricity, etc, etc... could have been an abortion.

A mother of a 3 year old can't go "Nope, I am not ready for this responsability." and have someone kill her kid. In my eyes it is the same thing because of my point above (preg = making life).

My favorites are the people that were failed abortions that went onto great things.... Talk about a close call.

As for the morning after pill, that is great for rape cases and I could see people using it for a busted condom. I am not 100% against abortion of any kind as I have said. My "exceptions" list is basically Medical reasons, rape, and the morning after pill after rape and broken condoms. Just my opinions.

And before the "it's just a clump of cells" argument comes up....

Does that look like a clump of cells?

XHonusWagnerX - 3-9-2006 at 03:59 PM

I respect your opinions 100%, but they are just that... your opinions. You look at that picture from the 8th week and see a life, I dont. There is now way that it (Im not sure what to refere it it as, sorry) could live on its own.

Its really a tough discussion to have especially in text because I dont want anyone to read any negative tones into my words. Its really all just a matter of opinion, they just tend to be very strong opinions.

In this case I happen to support the persons right to chose for more than the week that the morning after pill is efective.

My biggest fear is not even about abortions. Its about what is next? If the government can overturn something that the supreme court decided years ago then what else can they change? Bringing back prohibition? Banning porn? Limiting free speach (even further)? It starts with one thing and can have a really bad snowball effect.

defstarsteve - 3-9-2006 at 04:17 PM

there were 5 million abortions last year and only 200,000 adoptions....
do we need another 5 million lives to feed...
each year...

it's not pretty but if it's not your situation then you have no right to chose for someone else...
Heather and I have a son together but we had an abortion after we were together for about 2 months... there was no way we were ready at that point to have a child together.
I already had a 4 year old at the time with my ex wife as well that we had to take care of.

birth control is not perfect....but nothing is...
but the choices we make in life are ours to make, not the governments...

and at 8 weeks, is there a chance of that group of cells is going to be able to sustain life outside the womb and survive and grow into a healthy adult ...without millions of dollars in medical bills?

I know this is a touch subject but there is no easy answer, but if we take away our freedoms based on religion, are we any better then our so called terrorists.

we might as well get all the women covering exposed skin, and back into the kitchen and no more education for them...

XHonusWagnerX - 3-9-2006 at 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by defstarsteve
there were 5 million abortions last year and only 200,000 adoptions....
do we need another 5 million lives to feed...
each year...

That really is one of the big key points in my opinion also.

RomanticViolence - 3-9-2006 at 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by defstarsteve
there were 5 million abortions last year and only 200,000 adoptions....
do we need another 5 million lives to feed...
each year...

it's not pretty but if it's not your situation then you have no right to chose for someone else...

birth control is not perfect....but nothing is...
but the choices we make in life are ours to make, not the governments...

and at 8 weeks, is there a chance of that group of cells is going to be able to sustain life outside the womb and survive and grow into a healthy adult ...without millions of dollars in medical bills?

I know this is a touch subject but there is no easy answer, but if we take away our freedoms based on religion, are we any better then our so called terrorists.

we might as well get all the women covering exposed skin, and back into the kitchen and no more education for them...

Awesome answer Steve!
That is all

XnMeX - 3-9-2006 at 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by defstarsteve
there were 5 million abortions last year and only 200,000 adoptions....
do we need another 5 million lives to feed...
each year...

it's not pretty but if it's not your situation then you have no right to chose for someone else...
Heather and I have a son together but we had an abortion after we were together for about 2 months... there was no way we were ready at that point to have a child together.
I already had a 4 year old at the time with my ex wife as well that we had to take care of.

birth control is not perfect....but nothing is...
but the choices we make in life are ours to make, not the governments...

and at 8 weeks, is there a chance of that group of cells is going to be able to sustain life outside the womb and survive and grow into a healthy adult ...without millions of dollars in medical bills?

I know this is a touch subject but there is no easy answer, but if we take away our freedoms based on religion, are we any better then our so called terrorists.

we might as well get all the women covering exposed skin, and back into the kitchen and no more education for them...

I don't mean to pry, but did you use protection in those instances?

Also, my reasoning is FAR from religious. I don't believe in any higher powers. It is just how I feel. How can it not be ending a life? No one has got to that other than "It wouldn't live in it's own." which is a total bs excuse. Would you live without a heart transplant if you needed one? Sure, you have the choice to get one or not, but the fetus doesn't have any choices.

Sure, more abortions are occuring then abortions but thats the speed of the process. I have not heard of a shortage of adopting parents, just a shortage of kids to adopt (waiting lists and all). I think the main thing is people need to make better choices in life. I myself would not fuck someone I don't intend to spend the rest of my life with. Then you got people with 8 different kids with 6 different mothers. The world is going straight down the shitter. That is all it breaks down to.

Also, the argument of "The government will start taking away this, that, and the other thing...." prohibition, porn, etc.... It is ALL alot different then Murder.

I want to know all your takes on Partial Birth Abortion...

BKT - 3-9-2006 at 04:57 PM

Also, to MM about "How can you make peoples decissions, see above. A pregnant girl makes the dcision for an abortion, she is making a decision for the unborn. I also love to think of it this way.... ANYONE of us could have been an abortion. The person who cured polio, inventer the wheel, invented electricity, etc, etc... could have been an abortion.

I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that if the person that invented the wheel was aborted, someone else may have come along and figured the whole wheel thing out. Same with electricity and just about everything else.

MM.

XHonusWagnerX - 3-9-2006 at 05:02 PM

My opinion will sound kind of stupid here but partial birth or morning after pill I feel lik what ever is inside someones body is part of them and if they decide they don't want it, it should be their right to get rid of it.

I also think that suicide at any age should be legal.

As far as the murder thing... Murder is legal when the government does it. Capital punishment (which I support for some of the same reasons I support abortion) is murder & war is murder.

XHonusWagnerX - 3-9-2006 at 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by metal mulisha
I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that if the person that invented the wheel was aborted, someone else may have come along and figured the whole wheel thing out. Same with electricity and just about everything else.

MM.

That is true, but more so I think its an invalid argument because it can work both ways. What if Hitler, Bin Laden, Ted Kazinsky & David Berkowitz had been aborted? Then we would be better off.

XnMeX - 3-9-2006 at 05:10 PM

have you seen what Partial Birth is? and when it takes place?

You gotta be fucking kidding me if you think THAT should be legal. At all points that it is performed, the baby could live on it's own.

I have also seen videos of the most common type of abortion and the baby trying to avoid the needle, like it was fighting back.... aka: it knew what was going down.

As for the death penalty, I am ALL for it. The people that get that, deserve it. Unborn childeren don't. And war as well (minus all the inocent deaths).

XHonusWagnerX - 3-9-2006 at 05:19 PM

Yah Ive seen that graphic before, from you actually.

Like I said its all a matter of opinion.

Im probably an insensative prick... I dont know. There are plenty of people that I would like to kill so I guess I cant really feel for a 'person' that isnt born yet.

defstarsteve - 3-9-2006 at 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by XnMeX

I don't mean to pry, but did you use protection in those instances?

yes and you know that 1% yeah well it happens

and how is it ending a life if that life can not be sustained outside of a womb...

if you crack and egg.....will it become a chicken, or an meal
if you crack the womb will it become a person, not with out the protection of the womb....(eggshell)

it's just tissue unable to grown without the mother...

as for the heart transplant argument
I am alive
if you take an 8 week old fetus out of the womb, it will not be...
there for it has no choice it is not already alive...

does it deserve the right to vote as well?
or be counted in a census?

it is a parasite at that point, it needs it's host in order to grow but remove it from the host and it is nothing...

hard stance yes, but you think times are hard now, good luck finding jobs, education and housing and food for the increase in births every year...

the planet is overpopulated enough, bring the bird flu, fuck it

no abortions, no birth control, no sex ed in school....
we are animals, it is in our nature to want to mate, it is in our biology, but religion wants to remove us from the animal kingdom, and make us fight out natural instincts and only have sex to have kids....

this country is fucked that is all...

XnMeX - 3-9-2006 at 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by defstarsteve

Quote:

Originally posted by XnMeX

I don't mean to pry, but did you use protection in those instances?

1*** yes and you know that 1% yeah well it happens

2*** as for the heart transplant argument
I am alive
if you take an 8 week old fetus out of the womb, it will not be...
there for it has no choice it is not already alive...

1*** That was one of the points I made above I believe. If you actually took a decent effort to prevent the pregnancy, then I think it's a choice to be made. I am not one that would do that ,but if there was a decent effort made, then what can I say. How could it be proved? It couldn't, it's just my opinion.

2*** And if you needed a heart transplant and didn't get one, you would die. A fetus is living inside of a mother. Taking it out makes it not live. 2+2=4 If somthing is alive, then made to be not alive, it is dead (killed)

PS: the country is INDEED fucked, I think everyone on the board would agree on that one.

Voodoobillyman - 3-9-2006 at 05:45 PM

Wow, I dont know if I want to chime in on this one or not, definitely a tough subject and good points on both sides. I am dead set against the government making choices for me. I also lean on the anti abortion side of things, and partial birth abortion is just fucking obscene, there is no way that should be legal whatsoever. I think the point made about Religion being a factor in legislation was a good one............that is very dangerous and treads closely with those our country is at war with, it would definitely make us hypocrites if we began to create and enforce policies based on the powers that be Religious beliefs. I truly believe we are headed on a path of self destruction and this issue is just one small sliver of it all.

defstarsteve - 3-9-2006 at 05:52 PM

you are missing the point of part 2

the fetus can make no choice as it is not alive.... but a part of the mother
no different then a tapeworm...

if the gestation period for a child was 8 weeks and could live without the womb, your argument would be valid...

but there is a reason that full term is 10 months
becasue it can not be alive outside of the womb before that time, without a doctors care, but that is a choice that has to be made as well,

lets take this shit midevil
if a mother only carried a child to a 6 month term before incubators, would that child have lived?
no, natural selection...

now it's modern times and a premature child can be saved... but it is up to the parents and doctors to make that decision, not the new born... there is a medical reason that it left the womb early, it did not make up it's mind and say ya know it's cramped in here I need to take a walk... if it did it would die.

so apply that logic to abortion, it can not live without the mother... not live
not alive...
no soul, no conscience, nothing that isn't being supplied directly from the mother...

it is the mother that is alive and she and her parnter have the right to choose for themselves what kind of life tey wish to lead as wel las thier offspring...

no one should be forced to live with a mistake of that magnitude...
dude once you have kids, you will see not only how amazing they are, but how hard it is,

if you want to bring down abortions in this country, make condoms and birth control and sex ed available...

I hate to use their own argument against them but here it goes....
this is used by the gun control haters (most of them being religious conservatives)

the gun control haters all preach gun saftey thru education, every child should be taught how to properly use a weapon so that no mistake can be made, and they wont accidentally shoot little timmy with dads loaded gun under the pillow... they will elarn to respect the damage that can be done by one

same logic... so why not teach pre-teens about the changes their hormones are going thru, so they don't make a life changing mistake....

but sex is bad unless you are making more little babies to worship god... and pay money to the church...

i'm not saying free porn to 5 year olds, but to make it tough for teenagers to get condoms or the pill is just a fucking joke especailly if you are going to give them no other alternatives as well....

this world is indeed fucked as long as we let any religion have any control over government

DaveMoral - 3-9-2006 at 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by metal mulisha

Quote:

You must be fucking kidding me? I'm not an activist, I have my views and beliefs and I tend to keep them to myself, I'm not forcing anything on anybody. I think you should keep your opinions to yourself, because you just sound like an ass when you're basically accusing me of trying to make people's decisions for them... while no where in my response was there anything remotely indicating that I'm trying to do that.

I personally feel that abortion is wrong. End of story.

XnMeX - 3-10-2006 at 07:39 AM

We all know this could go on and on and on. I think some points made are just blind and ignorant, that is my opinion. The non living thing argument by steve is just stupid but I am not gonna get furthur into it. We have all said our opinions, and it would just keep going and going and going. I don't see how someone with kids can be for abortion knowing that the kid they have now could have been a decision away. fetus, becomes a baby, becomes a child. How can you fight that?

And yes, they do need to have MORE sex ed and MORE protection availible. It is funny how the same religious end that is agruing against abortions, is the same end arguing against prevetative steps (condoms in school, more sex ed, pill availibility, etc...)

I think birth control pills should be over the counter. People would be able to missuse them possibly (not sure what could happen from them), but I think it would serve a greater good.