affirmative action...

newbreedbrian - 3-23-2006 at 12:38 PM

what are your thoughts? has it been successful? is it necessary? has it evened the playing field a bit?

Discipline - 3-23-2006 at 12:45 PM

Reverse discrimination.

Voodoobillyman - 3-23-2006 at 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline
Reverse discrimination.

clevohardcore - 3-23-2006 at 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline
Reverse discrimination.

moron - 3-23-2006 at 01:59 PM

Im gonna go against the grain here and say it was the best thing that's ever been done in this country. I couldnt tell you if it's necessary today though. It's not a topic I keep up to date with.

BKT - 3-23-2006 at 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline
Reverse discrimination.

agree 100% it is the biggest bunch of shit. The right man for the job should ge it, not the right colour for the job.

MM.

XnMeX - 3-23-2006 at 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by metal mulisha

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline
Reverse discrimination.

agree 100% it is the biggest bunch of shit. The right man for the job should ge it, not the right colour for the job.

MM.

Not to mention you even get extra points on some admisions tests for some colleges for being "NOT white".

Voodoobillyman - 3-23-2006 at 02:33 PM

My family hails from ireland, my grandparents came straight off the boat from County Cork and they still werent forced to work the railways with the Chinese immigrants. the point is no one alive today can claim to be a slave, yeah they may have it in the bloodline, but they did not suffer at all for it. This shit is outdated and needs to go away, anyone taking advantage of it right now didnt suffer a hill o fuckin beans for it, affirmative action= bullshit, and fuck sharpton, jackson and all those other mutherfuckers who cry the big cry for this crap. This is one post away from the hate boards

newbreedbrian - 3-23-2006 at 03:45 PM

i'm pretty torn on the issue and i'd like to play devil's advocate for a moment. the creation of a black middle class has been a very positive thing. does the end justify the means? not sure, that's a tough question. remember the end of slavery hardly ended discrimination. the civil rights movement is only 40 years old. one generation, our parents. the right wing would say that blacks need to work hard and get out of the cycle of poverty. i think anyone who says that things are even and everyone has the same opportunities is pretty naive. racism may be politically incorrect now, but it is alive and well. my family is of irish descent as well as is a large portion of newfoundland. the irish were brought there by the english merchants as laborers. back then they worked on the credit system which essentially amounted to slavery in order to keep the class system in place. they were given credit for their efforts at the company store, which were owned by the merchants. the merchants set the prices at the store as well as the credit given. it was a neverending cycle of severe poverty. eventually due to intervention by the government in the first half of the 20th century that system was revoked, much to the chagrin of the merchant class. what it did was to blur class lines and give people more opportunity. what i'm trying to say is sometimes people being forced to do the right thing can have a positive effect. should the most qualified person always be hired? absolutely. but step back for a moment and think about it. do you not think a black person has not been hired for a job they were more than qualified for based on discrimination in the last 40 years? that being said i don't think the issue is black and white (so to speak). discrimination is discrimination no doubt. and the university thing really bugs me. there are universities that, when they assign a score based on someones application , give extra points to visible minorities (usually with the exception of asians). the idea being to give people from poorer backgrounds a leg up. that's a load of shit since i knew black people in school who came from families with a hell of a lot more money than we ever had. if the idea is to base it on economics, than at least have the balls to drop the pc bullshit and actually BASE IT ON ECONOMICS! with an issue this complex, it pays to look at it from both sides. someone once said "the mark of intelligence is being able to entertain another person's opinion without accepting it"

DaveMoral - 3-23-2006 at 10:26 PM

I would say that without a doubt affirmative action has been positive, but at this point it's a tool used by the upper class to keep the working class divided along racial lines. Take a white guy and a black guy who have equal qualifications and award the job to the black dude based upon a affirmative action requirement and then you'll create a resentment in the white dude not just for affirmative action, but towards that black dude, and then black people generally.

On the other hand, take affirmative action away and have the same situation and there's a chance that in some regions you'll have employers turning away black people because they are black, not because they are least qualified.

It's all about balance. Ultimately it would be best to make our society less racially oriented. Unfortunately, this can't be done so long as there is so much inequality between races. Ultimately the working class needs to unite against the priviledged for the sake of bringing state provided health care, and etc etc. I certainly don't have the solutions, but I've got enough problems, know what I mean?

thedog - 3-23-2006 at 11:58 PM

i just dont think someone should get a job,
just to fill some quota and be the token ethnic guy.
give it to the guy who is more qualified.

and people that complain about slavery just need to move on.
Yes it was fucked up, but it was a long time ago.

How often do you hear someone whos relatives died fighting to
end slavery in the civil war ask for their reperations.

Voodoobillyman - 3-24-2006 at 08:39 AM

Quote:

Ultimately the working class needs to unite against the priviledged for the sake of bringing state provided health care,

Dude, yer jokin about this right? Have you ever seen Canadas healthcare system and how it works. Franky I would rather go to an alley hack to have an asshole abortion than go to "state sponsored" clinics. Hell the docs in the box we have in the states now are scary enough. And as an active duty military member, my "free" healthcare is not much better, you wanna talk about scary.....yeeesh.

newbreedbrian - 3-24-2006 at 11:09 AM

please elaborate on the faults in canadas health care system. i'd love some more information.

DaveMoral - 3-24-2006 at 07:56 PM

So would I.

Dude, your health care from the military would be a step up from none for me.

My wife works just to pay for her health insurance.

moforn - 3-24-2006 at 08:37 PM

Regarding affirmative action I've got divided thoughts. I suppose I agree with the sentiment that certain groups have historically been screwed over and that something should be done to rectify this inequity- despite our contemporary "enlightened" society certain groups remain marginalized.
While I don't object to affirmative action in principle in practice I think it falls short of it's goals. As stated earlier it creates resentment along racial lines within the working/middle class that ultimately have a negative impact not only on the interests of the working class but on the moral fibre of society as a whole.
I think my biggest objection is that the existence of affirmative action creates a credibility gap- casting doubt on the abilities of minorities to excel in a field due the perception that they got in based on their ethnicity rather than their ability. As a male I'm a minority in my profession (nursing) if the standards for me to be accepted to school or to obtain and keep my license had been lowered to make it easier for me than for most of my colleagues I'd feel not only insulted, but also that I could never really prove myself in the field.
Recognizing that most of the inequities that seem to follow racial lines actually follow class lines much closer (ie- yes white people have longer life expectancies in the western world than black people, but the life expectancies for well-off white folks and black folks are about the same and the expectancies for po' honkeys and negroes is also comparable, it's just that whitey is over-represented in the well-off demographic and black folks are disproportionately poor). The more effective and morally sound approach is to approach the problem by dealing with the factors that lead to these differences in such ways as improving the quality of schools in lower income areas, making it easier for people from disadvantaged backgrounds to obtain education through scholarships, bursaries or simply better funding of colleges and trade schools.
Addressing racial disparity by giving everyone equal opportunity is more effective, credible and empowering than to reduce it to a "point system" that ultimately insults everyone involved, reinforces racist stereotypes (essentially telling minorities "we don't really expect you to be as good as the rest of us but we'll throw you a bone now and then") and does nothing to address the underlying causes of race/class stratification.

XHonusWagnerX - 3-25-2006 at 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline
Reverse discrimination.

All that I read was the first and second post of this thread so far, but this is definitly my opinion on it.

Allthough I dont really like the term 'reverse' discrimination. That makes it sound like discrimination is defined as whites against others when its really just a blanket term. Discrimination is bullshit no matter what and when its used to help someone lesser qualified for something its even worse.

DaveMoral - 3-25-2006 at 01:11 PM

Unfortunately it is assumed that all black people who get jobs over white people are less qualified... I have my doubts that this is the case in the majority of situations. I honestly think that when a man gets turned down for a job in favor of a black man he automatically, and racistly(is that a word?), makes the assumption that the black man was less qualified and that affirmative action was working against him. I don't know all the facts, but like I said... I doubt this is always the case, or even often the case.

Killthehumans - 3-25-2006 at 02:03 PM

I have mixed feelings on it. The fact is it is not right to turn a man down for a job because he isnt a certain color, or hire a someone because they are. However i do agree with it being used for colleges and stuff.

tireironsaint - 3-25-2006 at 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
Unfortunately it is assumed that all black people who get jobs over white people are less qualified... I have my doubts that this is the case in the majority of situations. I honestly think that when a man gets turned down for a job in favor of a black man he automatically, and racistly(is that a word?), makes the assumption that the black man was less qualified and that affirmative action was working against him. I don't know all the facts, but like I said... I doubt this is always the case, or even often the case.

If this is honestly what happens, why would there need to be a government program like Affirmative Action? Seriously, if it's not promoting people over others strictly based on their race, what is it doing? That IS what AA is designed to do, you do realize that, yes? I haven't been involved in one of these situations as I really haven't worked any jobs where this was a big concern, but just the idea behind AA is a racist one. I think that there is no need for a program to artificially "equalize" the races because I don't believe that one race is superior to others, nor that one race is inferior to the rest. I agree with what moforn was saying about how something like this needs to be based on economic issues instead of racial ones. Give that scholarship to the poor kid with promise, not just to someone because your school doesn't have X number of people of that race. Give the job to whoever deserves it, not to whoever fills your hiring quota. I think it's just as bad for schools to use it as it is for employers. In the long run schools will look worse racially because there will be the overpriveleged rich (predominately) white kids who can buy all the help they need to ace every class and then people who were let in to the school because of their race. Some of the racially admitted students will do fine, some will be underprepared and not do so well, and some will be poor inner city kids with nothing to get them even close to being prepared and no way to afford things like tutors that might be able to bring them up where they need to be to do well in school. Obviously, I'm not saying that people who aren't white are all too stupid to do well in school or that rich whites are all smarter than average, what I'm saying is that money plays a huge role in tipping the scales in someone's favor. Rich kids go to the best schools BEFORE college and are better prepared, they can afford tutors or to buy the answers. Poor kids of any color can't do these things and are at a disadvantage from the start because of a lack of decent schooling from elementary school on. Race shouldn't enter the picture at all unless, of course, you are of the assumption that it is race that causes the differences in people and so the playing field can only be leveled by giving unfair advantage to what you see as the inferior race. Fuck Affirmative Action.

DaveMoral - 3-25-2006 at 03:24 PM

All I'm saying is that I have my doubts that in every instance, and in MOST instances, that AA is used to give jobs to lesser qualified people because of their skintone vs two men of different ethnicities with equal qualification and the darker skinned qualified man being chosen for the job. See what I'm saying?

tireironsaint - 3-25-2006 at 03:32 PM

I see what you're saying, but my point is that there shouldn't be any kind of program where that is not only an option, but is a rewarded action.

newbreedbrian - 3-25-2006 at 04:02 PM

like i said the university thing is really skewed. as far as the hiring process goes, this is where things get more complicated. race shouldn't be an issue, but let's face it...it is. especially at the dawn of affirmative action, and yes, still today. for every one black person hired because of affirmative action, it'd be fair to say to say there are substantially more not hired because of their skin color. whether anyone wants to admit it or not, we all know people who, if they were in charge, would be unlikely to hire a black person over a white person regardless of qualification. and this gets more pronounced when talking about a better job than a crappy dishwashing job or the like. as far as lowering scoring standards for a job or school, that's nothing but condescending. i guess like i said it comes back to does the end justify the means? lets face it, without AA alot of families would not have had the opportunities they had 30 years ago to make a better life for them and their families. i wish i had a better system to promote equality. fact is i don't and none of us do. maybe there isn't one.