When did hardcore go wrong?

Voodoobillyman - 5-24-2006 at 02:08 PM

In your opinion, when exactly did hardcore go wrong or begin to die? or is there anything wrong with it? Was it a specific band or person, type of sound or a particular year? I am sure everyone here has an opinion on this one. My opinion is the early nineties when metal began to creep into it and the thug yo yo stuff became predominant. This whole fashion, girly pant wearin shit is just one more nail in the coffin. But for some it's just the beginning of what they have heard called hardcore and they love it. it's all in the eye of the beholder I guess.

gavin - 5-24-2006 at 02:12 PM

krishna shit
"metalcore"

thats what killed it for me

Discipline - 5-24-2006 at 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBadVibes
krishna shit
"metalcore"

thats what killed it for me

That, plus the thug shit.

gavin - 5-24-2006 at 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBadVibes
krishna shit
"metalcore"

thats what killed it for me

That, plus the thug shit.

i kinda lump that all in with the metal core stuff but yeah

XHonusWagnerX - 5-24-2006 at 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
In your opinion, when exactly did hardcore go wrong or begin to die? or is there anything wrong with it? Was it a specific band or person, type of sound or a particular year? I am sure everyone here has an opinion on this one. My opinion is the early nineties when metal began to creep into it and the thug yo yo stuff became predominant. This whole fashion, girly pant wearin shit is just one more nail in the coffin. But for some it's just the beginning of what they have heard called hardcore and they love it. it's all in the eye of the beholder I guess.

I agree completly with that statement. I hate that Atreau is 'hardcore' now, but I dont know if I know what hardcore actually is now? I mean to me DYS, SLAPSHOT, UNIFORM CHOICE, INSTED, YOUTH OF TODAY, NEGATIVE FX, GORILLA BISCUITS, MURPHYS LAW, AGNOSTIC FRONT, JUDGE... those were/are hardcore bands. Now they dont all sound the same so that means that Hardcore was just as much attitude as it was sound.

There are LOTS of people that consider EARTH CRISIS to be the apitamy of hardcore and to me they are a metal band.

Probably the majority of people consider MADBALL to be one of THEE Ultimate Hardcore bands and to me they are heavily metal influenced.

It is all a matter of opinion and its very hard to say that Hardcore is a SOUND rather than a mindset or something because most would not argue that the GORILLA BISCUITS are a hardcore band and SSD is a hardcore band, but they sound nothing a like.

XHonusWagnerX - 5-24-2006 at 02:25 PM

Question:

When people use the term THUG CORE what bands come to mind? for me its SKARHEAD, CROWN OF THORNZ, MADBALL....

gavin - 5-24-2006 at 02:31 PM

negative approach
early agnostic front
the freeze
jerrys kids
black flag
negative fx

and so on....
that to me is hardcore
after that stuff, i dont know what happened
too much outside influence from other types of music maybe

XHonusWagnerX - 5-24-2006 at 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBadVibes
negative approach
early agnostic front
the freeze
jerrys kids
black flag
negative fx

and so on....
that to me is hardcore
after that stuff, i dont know what happened
too much outside influence from other types of music maybe

haha I dont mean to be dominating this thread, but I agree with that also. Its weird though because I would say that LATER Black Flag was more 'hardcore' and the earlier stuff was more 'punk'

JawnDiablo - 5-24-2006 at 03:13 PM

I don't really care anymore.
sorry.
when something good comes out, i get it.
when something good comes around, maybe ill go
other than that, theres always been so much crap about "hardcore" that i didnt like.

CR83 - 5-24-2006 at 03:24 PM

Man, I'm not really much of a Historian on this subject. I never really got into this stuff until 1997. I had gone to a lot of shows prior to that but never really paid attention.

Gooch - 5-24-2006 at 03:36 PM

While there are a lot of bad bands out there calling themselves hardcore, there's just as many that play traditional straight up hardcore. If some shitty eyeliner wearing metal bad that has videos on MTV wants to call themselves hardcore, don't worry about it. It doesn't bother me anymore. I know what harcore is and that's all that matters.

If you want to check out an awesome hardcore band from 2006, find a record by DIRECT CONTROL. Straight up 1983 "Reagan Era" style band. Hell, they even have a song called Ronnies Dead. Another great band is DEAD STOP from Belgium. They actually just played their last show the other day, but they left behind 2 Lps and a 7". They sound like Victim in Pain era AF with a little NA/Antidote/CroMags thrown in.
If you want Black Flag, check out ANNIHILATION TIME from Cali.
And for my personal favorite, THE FIRST STEP. If you like 88 style posicore, these guys are THE best.

I think hardcore is far from dead, you just need to weed through all the crap that's out there.

BKT - 5-24-2006 at 03:37 PM

Metal and thug shit was the best thing that ever happened to hardcore. Just my opinion and ya I know most on this site don't agree, but I really don't care.

hardcore was the same old sounding bullshit for as long as I can remember before the metal and hip hop influence came around. I like the old bands and have a lot of respect for what they started, but shit pull your fucking head out of the past and understand that all things change.

AF, Leeway, Judge, SOD all total metal bands when they started out, so don't give me any bullshit about how metal killed hardcore.

MM.

gavin - 5-24-2006 at 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by metal mulisha
Metal and thug shit was the best thing that ever happened to hardcore. Just my opinion and ya I know most on this site don't agree, but I really don't care.

hardcore was the same old sounding bullshit for as long as I can remember before the metal and hip hop influence came around. I like the old bands and have a lot of respect for what they started, but shit pull your fucking head out of the past and understand that all things change.

AF, Leeway, Judge, SOD all total metal bands when they started out, so don't give me any bullshit about how metal killed hardcore.

MM.

can you ever make a fucking point without coming off like a total douchebag tough guy?
its fucking boring man
i respect everyones opinion but can ya state it without the bullshit for once?

BKT - 5-24-2006 at 04:05 PM

nope.

MM.

gavin - 5-24-2006 at 04:07 PM

yeah
i didnt think so
you do such a good job coming off like a total tool why would you stop?
good job scrappy

defstarsteve - 5-24-2006 at 04:10 PM

hardcore got safe,
it lost it's edge for sure
used to be you didn't know if you were gonna get jumped by skins or by cops at every show...

another major problem is hardcore kids today act like this is some exclusive club
but we used to be inclusive of everyone... you had freaks that looked like devo next to kids in boots and braces

so what if some fag dresses like robert smith
he came to the show, bought merch and danced along
he'll either grow out of it or stick it out but it's not reason to beat him down cause he dresses like a fruit...

we used to have bands like bad brains and the big boys
how many bands are that daring anymore

Voodoobillyman - 5-24-2006 at 05:13 PM

I always thought the term hardcore, was meant for a more serious aggresive form of punk rock really. You know hardcore punk. I find alot of bands that people on here dig had a taste of metal to them Sheer Terror being one of the big ones I can think of. I still consider them hardcore though. I also agree with Steve, it wasnt about secularitan (sp?) motives, it was baout a thing everyone had that basically had nothing else and like all good things was destined for exploitation by marketing and hype. The stuff MM digs is totally not what I would call hardcore, but alot of people do call it that, it's metal, no ifs ands or buts about it in my head. I am also very unimpressed with some of the older salts goin along with the trends, I am all about growth and change, but do it uniquely, dont rehash the same shit over and over. if anything I hear more cookie cutter crap coming from the metalcore crowd than anyone and especially the thug shit, it's all the same yo yo shit from the same yo yo's.

Voodoobillyman - 5-24-2006 at 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gooch
While there are a lot of bad bands out there calling themselves hardcore, there's just as many that play traditional straight up hardcore. If some shitty eyeliner wearing metal bad that has videos on MTV wants to call themselves hardcore, don't worry about it. It doesn't bother me anymore. I know what harcore is and that's all that matters.

If you want to check out an awesome hardcore band from 2006, find a record by DIRECT CONTROL. Straight up 1983 "Reagan Era" style band. Hell, they even have a song called Ronnies Dead. Another great band is DEAD STOP from Belgium. They actually just played their last show the other day, but they left behind 2 Lps and a 7". They sound like Victim in Pain era AF with a little NA/Antidote/CroMags thrown in.
If you want Black Flag, check out ANNIHILATION TIME from Cali.
And for my personal favorite, THE FIRST STEP. If you like 88 style posicore, these guys are THE best.

I think hardcore is far from dead, you just need to weed through all the crap that's out there.

I also have hope, because of bands like the ones you mentioned and a few others still doin some good stuff. Sometimes sticking to the roots of a particular music is the right thing to do, and we all know the "retro" thing is in big now so why wouldnt retrocore (i just made it up, and I like it) become huge with the next generation of hardcore lovin people. Hardcore is definitely not dead, but the shit is on life support in the ICU of music.

sippers - 5-24-2006 at 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by defstarsteve
hardcore got safe,
it lost it's edge for sure
used to be you didn't know if you were gonna get jumped by skins or by cops at every show...

another major problem is hardcore kids today act like this is some exclusive club
but we used to be inclusive of everyone... you had freaks that looked like devo next to kids in boots and braces

so what if some fag dresses like robert smith
he came to the show, bought merch and danced along
he'll either grow out of it or stick it out but it's not reason to beat him down cause he dresses like a fruit...

we used to have bands like bad brains and the big boys
how many bands are that daring anymore

good post..the good old days.punks,skins,and your local freaks.the days of when hardcore was punk,and punk was hardcore.....

barc0debaby - 5-24-2006 at 06:08 PM

"Hardcore Punk (or Hardcore) is a faster, heavier version of Punk Rock, characterized by short, loud, and often passionate songs."

Has anyone read American Hardcore: A Tribal History? This topic reminded me of that book. Need to get a copy of it sometime soon.

DaveMoral - 5-24-2006 at 06:21 PM

I don't know that hardcore has ever gone wrong... there always have been, and likely always will be, shitty trends that crop up from time to time. Fuck it, sometimes sound doesn't mean anything to me anymore. Though I'm more discerning in what I would call "hardcore" anymore. Though I don't relegate all bands that are "hardcore" to the limits of how it was in the 80s. I think Madball is without a doubt hardcore, even though there's plenty of metal influence in there. Earth Crisis too. They're musically a metal band for sure, but the attitude is hardcore for sure.

As far as some of that throw back shit... the Philly area seems to be croppin' up alot of shit like that lately. Some of the younger kids(teens and early 20s) are doing bands like Lighten Up, Drawing Dead and this dude that's helping me do an Oi/hardcore project plays drums in a DRI type band. What's good is good, and fuck the rest of the shit. I've a major problem with the eyeliner and girl pants kids... simply because the supposedly "hardcore" bands they follow are the douchebags out to make a buck on the shit that the rest of us have put our blood and sweat into... from some of yous that have been around since the hey day, to those of us that came in when vegan straight edge was the dominant force. That shit pisses me off to no end.

The major problem I ended up having with hardcore, and the reason I didn't pay attention or go to shows for a couple years at the turn of the century, was due to douchebag kids from every walk. Shit talkers, naysayers, backstabbers... all those kids need to pack it up and move on, we don't need their kind.

barc0debaby - 5-24-2006 at 06:28 PM

A few of the old hardcore bands from southern california are still playing. Mostly from the nardcore scene, the skatepark shows are a blast. There was a really good show a while back with Dr.know and mike v and the rats, Vallely kicks ass! Unfortunately they seem to be less frequent, its either been street punx or screamy crunch hipster metal shows lately.

JawnDiablo - 5-24-2006 at 06:32 PM

the bands within the book American Hardcore are honestly what I would consider to be the true meaning of it. It really was a different time period, and it was a hell of alot less accepted then it is currently. It was allot more dangerous in them days to be a "hardcore person". Most of the events in that book however were from before my time being I am 31 and much of it took place in the time that I was between 7-12. The bands that contributed to it back in 80-87 paved the way and made it a whole lot easier for the Terrors and whatevers of today. Yeah theres a lot of good bands putting out good music, but generally theres a different vibe at shows. There is no feeling of solidarity or whatever unity crap is preached by half of the bands. At least Im not feeling it . Christ I read on here about some retards from FSU and AC beating the piss out of each other at what sounded like a prety small venue here in Philly a few weeks ago. That shit right there is enough to make me want to steer clear of the shit, even though I dig them bands allot.
Oh and by the way, the reason I dig the Bad Vibes so much isnt because Geoff posts on here, or they're from Philly, it is because the music they make is true to the original element from which all this came from. No tuff guy crap, no cliches, no fashion. Just agrressive angry honest stuff. Now lets see a show again soon. I need somethin to do...

upyerbum - 5-24-2006 at 07:32 PM

We could have the exact same thread about punk, or ska, or reggae, or country.......but not about Oi!.....Oi!Oi!Oi!Oi!

Voodoobillyman - 5-24-2006 at 08:20 PM

when the gang mentality came into it it was tarnished as well. All this three letter crew shit has GOT to go. I understand the meaning and passion behind it but dont hype it to suburban kids who are going to misinterpret and turn it into a joke by reenacting what they heard or saw from their latest favorite band...........until their new favorite band comes along.

barc0debaby - 5-24-2006 at 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
dont hype it to suburban kids who are going to misinterpret and turn it into a joke by reenacting what they heard or saw from their latest favorite band...........until their new favorite band comes along.

I moved from a hillbilly buttfuck mountain town to a suburb a few years back. The trend following is god awful, I've seen kids go from malt liqour and mowhawks to bandanas and flock of seagull haircuts in a matter of months. There are still a handful of kids though who know who bands like Goverment Issue and L.A's Wasted Youth are. Its by no means a scene of any sort, but it those kids are keeping the spirit alive. For every thousand kids with matching hatebreed shirts and engineer hats there are people like mr.badvibes, honus, voodoobilly, other people on the board, and plenty of bands and individuals that keep the heart of the hardcore movement still going. Shit has changed alot, but I think its incorrect to say that hardcore went wrong or died. True hardcore is still the same as it was back then, unliked but the majority. As for the comment about pulling your head out of the past and things changing, where do you think alot of these modern bands such as hatebreed and those involved in the thugcore movement will be down the road? Certainly not playing an all ages venue for ten bucks 15 years after they released their first record that they recorded and distrubed themselves....now thats fucking hardcore!!

DaveMoral - 5-25-2006 at 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by barc0debaby
where do you think alot of these modern bands such as hatebreed and those involved in the thugcore movement will be down the road? Certainly not playing an all ages venue for ten bucks 15 years after they released their first record that they recorded and distrubed themselves....now thats fucking hardcore!!

I'll say this... Hatebreed, supposedly, will be touring small all-ages venues... probably for 10 bucks, as I doubt their draw is nearly that as when they tour with Slayer, on their now 10 year anniversary since Jamey released their first record on his record label...

I think the same can be said for Madball from it's inception when Freddy was a baby(Ball of Destruction era) to now.

These bands DO have longevity, and I honestly do believe that these guys carry the spirit of hardcore. Madball has turned away from the thuggin' shit of late.

On a similar note... I think straight edge has gone wrong when fuck-wits like the dude over at www.sxe.com can say the shit he does. Frankly, I think it's shit that dudes say you HAVE to be into hardcore in order to be straight edge. A supposedly positive "movement" turned into an elitist club for morons who will just be dropping out of hardcore when they "grow up." Fags.

CR83 - 5-25-2006 at 01:17 AM

I think people get focussed on a "label" vs. the "Spirit". Honestly why the fuck do we care? Why is it "mine" or "yours". It is music to me. Not a way of life. To some it is a way of life and that is great. One of the great things about our society is that we have choices and we can interpret things how we choose. That leads us to different views within a "Scene".

Fuck Labels and lets embrace differences and become "tolerant". If societies, scenes and cultures were more tolerant the world would be a better place.

Why the fuck would I care if a band is "Metal" or "Old Skool" or "hardcore" or "Straight edge" or "Gay"? If it moves me, I listen to it and I support that band.

If I can fit it in, I'll go to the show. If I remember, I'll buy the album when it is released.

I'm tired of argumanets and I like what I like. I don't care what anyone posts. If it sounds good, then I'll support it and be moved by it.

Voodoobillyman - 5-25-2006 at 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Boycott Christian HC

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
Was it a specific band or person, type of sound or a particular year?

Yes, it was the American Nightmare/Give Up The Ghost type of sound.

Thats pretty direct and to the point. WOW

joemaconmovies - 5-25-2006 at 09:19 AM

i think the whole infusion of metal and hardcore kind of ruined it. i know bands grow and change sound, other wise it would get boring for both fans and the band, so i have no problem with bands incorporating some metal moments into their sound. i think the whole "new" hardcore scene where it's basically metal bands who call themselves hardcore that have ruined it. i also think the whole thug act/dress code shit has ruined it, as it's ruined punk at times. like someone said, if you go to a show, dance, buy merch, have a good time, who cares what you dress like. it's not a fucking club. it's music for the people and the word "people" means everyone, just not those who wear the "uniform." but this shit happens in a lot of scenes. i think there are still bands out there that keep hardcore alive. it's just that a trend becomes popular and that's what people concentrate on. just like the whole mall punk trend. let hardcore be hardcore and these trends will eventually die. stop making it a club (not saying people here are, i mean in general) and just let people go and enjoy the music. also...i think a lot of it has to do with respect. don't go to a show looking to be an asshole and start shit. if shit gets started, deal with it, but don't go looking for it. and that's my rant.

XHonusWagnerX - 5-25-2006 at 09:59 AM

One thing I hate that I always think of when topics like this come up is this...

Why is it that there are so many people that are into the Hip Hop/Thug Core stuff, but they are the same people that will bash the metal/rock/hip hop?

Why has "Crossover" become such a bad word when the first think I think of when someone says it is D.R.I.!

Even the song Crossover Sucks isnt really about what it apears to be. Lyrically it bashes, Kid rock & Limp Bizkit plus some bands that are not even 'crossover' like Godsmack (all though they are AWFUL!) But the truth is the song was inspired by experiences on a Euro tour called Crossover 2000

clevohardcore - 5-25-2006 at 10:53 AM

When HAZEN ST was released.

or the Good Charlotte DMS thing

XHonusWagnerX - 5-25-2006 at 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by clevohardcore
When HAZEN ST was released.

or the Good Charlotte DMS thing

Good call. When I started seeing DMS shirts on MTV or in major main stream magazines I thought that kind of made it a bit of a joke. Oh well.. .what the hell do I know?!

upyerbum - 5-25-2006 at 11:25 AM

I always thought the whole DMS thing was stupid anyway, crime is a very personal thing....if you know what I mean.

Discipline - 5-25-2006 at 11:40 AM

The one thing that some people miss is that while some of the old bands like AF, Cro-Mags, Sheer Terror, etc. had a metal influence in some of their stuff, they weren't metal bands. A lot of the "metalcore" bands just sound like metal bands without the solo's. There is big difference between having a metal influence and just sounding like a shitty metal band that can't play.

Voodoobillyman - 5-25-2006 at 12:38 PM

The main issue I think for older people like us old fucks is this, We grew up listening to this music that was self dubbed hardcore. it wasnt a household name and you couldnt go to the mall and buy the t-shirt. It was something for people who werent into the mainstream culture and questioned things around them. it wasnt about how you look or what "crew" you were "down" with. It wasnt about going to shows to purposely project power through fear and intimidation. It was a fucked up style of music for fuck ups. That has all changed and is not the case anymore, Moral said hatebreed was planning on touring small all ages venues soon and only charging 10 bucks to gety in................that is ridiculous and will cause more problems than is worth the move to prove they are still true to their roots (whatever thats worth) What you will get from that is all kinds of meatheads going to small clubs that they wouldnt have gone to other wise and trying to act a fool. hatebreed is a concert hall band now and they need to stick to it. if they dont like the fact that they have become that big, they shouldnt have marketed themselves so much. I know this is a rehashed subject, many times over in fact, but it is also a touchy subject with alot of folks here who have been around for awhile.

Voodoobillyman - 5-25-2006 at 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by XHonusWagnerX

Quote:

Originally posted by clevohardcore
When HAZEN ST was released.

or the Good Charlotte DMS thing

Good call. When I started seeing DMS shirts on MTV or in major main stream magazines I thought that kind of made it a bit of a joke. Oh well.. .what the hell do I know?!

marketing of your crew...........new for the 21st century

Six66Mike - 5-26-2006 at 02:07 AM

All of the below contributed to hardcore jumping the shark. Sure there's still great music out there but most of it seems asstastic these days.

- Jamey Jasta on MTV
- Boston Beatdown
- Hellfest
- Fashion (girls clothes, studded belts, white belts, black hair, make up etc etc)