Thorp and Sailor's Grave Board

A poll

Discipline - 7-6-2006 at 08:24 PM

Should people who have no grasp of the english language be allowed to legally obtain a drivers license?




I ask because I see these people in court every day and they can't even answer a simple question like "for the record, what is your full name?" They can't figure this out but we assume they'll be able to read signs? WTF???

XHonusWagnerX - 7-6-2006 at 08:50 PM

I voted no. People that cant speak English enough to interact in society really fucking piss me off!

clevohardcore - 7-7-2006 at 09:18 AM

no that scares me.

CR83 - 7-7-2006 at 09:33 AM

I agree. If you can't speak it, how the hell will you know what the signs say and how to obey them. For example, when workers are out on the streets doing their thing. Just unsafe.

Voodoobillyman - 7-7-2006 at 09:35 AM

Nope, and there are many other things besides a drivers license they should not be entitled to as well, like my fucking tax dollars in free fucking hand outs!

moron - 7-7-2006 at 09:52 AM

Im sure they have to pass a drivers test in order to get the license unless they got it illegally. Are there drivers tests that are administered in different languages?

Also, lots of signs on the road are shaped and colored a certain way so that they are recognizable without having to read what it says. Also, lots of signs have symbols or pictures instead of words. I dont have a stance on this, but Im just saying. You know... devil's advocate and shit.

JawnDiablo - 7-7-2006 at 09:55 AM

shit everything else has a spanish option these days. i call my bank to check my balance and there is a spanish option.

moron - 7-7-2006 at 09:57 AM

Well, that's a bank. Drivers licenses are given out by the government. Im just asking because I don't know if how these people would pass a driving test if they can't even read it. The driving part doesnt require much reading... more recognition. Im sure there are plenty of English speaking people who dont know how to read well, but still drive.

BDx13 - 7-7-2006 at 10:05 AM

yeah, but these days, most of the signs that dictate traffic laws are symbols. i may not know what STOP spells, but i know the but giant red fucking octagon means i gotta pare my coche!

moron - 7-7-2006 at 10:08 AM

That's what Im saying. Signs are designed more to be recognized by their shape/color/symbols rather than the words written on them. This of course doesnt include the big green billboard type signs with town names and route number and shit, but I dont think those are too difficult to understand either.

CR83 - 7-7-2006 at 12:18 PM

All good points about the signs and what not. What about if they are in an accident and can't communicate to law enforcement about their health or how the accident took place?

Not trying to hate on non-English speaking people but I just don't think this is a good idea for them.

godabandonedme - 7-7-2006 at 01:01 PM

No. And Joe Vento is right they shouldn't get a fucking cheesesteak either. If you live here you are an American, not Cuban-American, Mexican-American etc. etc. In America we speak English.

JawnDiablo - 7-7-2006 at 03:09 PM

I work with dudes who are all crazy about their Italian / Irish / Rican pride....i dunno, i never really had any hang ups about my nationality. probably because my family is 5-6th generation american so i was never really exposed to any culture besides scrapple and cheese steaks...
not that that has much to do with any of this ....im bored at work again. not really bored. just dont feel much like working.

rubeboy - 7-7-2006 at 05:40 PM

a friend of mine was rear-ended by an asian couple who could hardly speak english, lucky for him there was more damage to their car than his. I have nothing against immigrants, but for fucks sake at least try and learn the language

DaveMoral - 7-7-2006 at 06:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by godabandonedme
No. And Joe Vento is right they shouldn't get a fucking cheesesteak either. If you live here you are an American, not Cuban-American, Mexican-American etc. etc. In America we speak English.


There's a reason people identify with their nation of origin/ethnic origin and append "American" to it.... it always always has to do with societal discrimination against their people. Irish American African American or Mexican American... all have been discriminated against by the American "mongrel" system. People were made to feel like they were less human because of their ethnicity, and also made feel less American, so they take pride in their ethnicity and symbolically show they are just as American as us white American mongrels.

Discipline - 7-7-2006 at 06:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaveMoral
Quote:
Originally posted by godabandonedme
No. And Joe Vento is right they shouldn't get a fucking cheesesteak either. If you live here you are an American, not Cuban-American, Mexican-American etc. etc. In America we speak English.


There's a reason people identify with their nation of origin/ethnic origin and append "American" to it.... it always always has to do with societal discrimination against their people. Irish American African American or Mexican American... all have been discriminated against by the American "mongrel" system. People were made to feel like they were less human because of their ethnicity, and also made feel less American, so they take pride in their ethnicity and symbolically show they are just as American as us white American mongrels.


As a side note in reply to this, I have to say I refuse to use terms like "African-American" and things like that. MOst of the people who refer to themselves that way were born here, as were many generations of their family. There's nothing African about them. It could also be considered offensive to the many thousands upon thousands of Africans who are white. Why should African mean only black? The only way I would consider a person African-American is if they were born there, and then moved here and obtained citizenship in the U.S. Otherwise, yer just black. I used blacks as an example, but that goes for people of any color or background. If you were born here, you're simply American or Canadian. Rant over.


Back on topic.

I read once that here in Toronto a person could take their driver's license test in something like 30 different languages. It pisses me off when people won't learn the language. There is a bank machine around the corner from me that gives you the option of english, french, 2 asian languages, or two arabic-looking languages. Any time the government puts out new pamphlets you can order them in damn near any language you desire. I just think that driving is one of the many things, such as welfare, free healthcare, etc., that should be for those who are willing to make an effort to join our country, rather than clinging to the ways of the nation they came from.

Maybe I'm just an asshole, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

DaveMoral - 7-7-2006 at 09:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Discipline
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveMoral
Quote:
Originally posted by godabandonedme
No. And Joe Vento is right they shouldn't get a fucking cheesesteak either. If you live here you are an American, not Cuban-American, Mexican-American etc. etc. In America we speak English.


There's a reason people identify with their nation of origin/ethnic origin and append "American" to it.... it always always has to do with societal discrimination against their people. Irish American African American or Mexican American... all have been discriminated against by the American "mongrel" system. People were made to feel like they were less human because of their ethnicity, and also made feel less American, so they take pride in their ethnicity and symbolically show they are just as American as us white American mongrels.


As a side note in reply to this, I have to say I refuse to use terms like "African-American" and things like that. MOst of the people who refer to themselves that way were born here, as were many generations of their family. There's nothing African about them. It could also be considered offensive to the many thousands upon thousands of Africans who are white. Why should African mean only black? The only way I would consider a person African-American is if they were born there, and then moved here and obtained citizenship in the U.S. Otherwise, yer just black. I used blacks as an example, but that goes for people of any color or background. If you were born here, you're simply American or Canadian. Rant over.




Maybe I'm just an asshole, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.


See, when you say shit like that you just seem like a closet racist to me. That's shit that only white people run their mouths about.

And yes, you probably are an asshole. It's all good though.

barc0debaby - 7-7-2006 at 10:02 PM

I agree that if you plan on living in any country you should take the time to learn the native language and gain a basic knowledge of the native culture, even if the shining star of said culture is Manifest Destiny. On the other hand I fully support using terms such as African-American, Irish American, etc. It is true most people who use those terms where born here and their families have been here for many generations, but their roots still draw back to their ancestral homelands. It is especially important in America culture, one which until the 1960's with the election of the first Catholic President and the passage of the Civil Rights Act was completely dominated by white protestants to retain your ancestral heritage. My father is an German immigrant and my mother's family managed to keep their family name untarnished by Ellis Island and both sides are openly proud of their heritage and would never hesistate to refer to themselves as Irish-American or German-American.

Discipline - 7-7-2006 at 11:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaveMoral
Quote:
Originally posted by Discipline
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveMoral
Quote:
Originally posted by godabandonedme
No. And Joe Vento is right they shouldn't get a fucking cheesesteak either. If you live here you are an American, not Cuban-American, Mexican-American etc. etc. In America we speak English.


There's a reason people identify with their nation of origin/ethnic origin and append "American" to it.... it always always has to do with societal discrimination against their people. Irish American African American or Mexican American... all have been discriminated against by the American "mongrel" system. People were made to feel like they were less human because of their ethnicity, and also made feel less American, so they take pride in their ethnicity and symbolically show they are just as American as us white American mongrels.


As a side note in reply to this, I have to say I refuse to use terms like "African-American" and things like that. MOst of the people who refer to themselves that way were born here, as were many generations of their family. There's nothing African about them. It could also be considered offensive to the many thousands upon thousands of Africans who are white. Why should African mean only black? The only way I would consider a person African-American is if they were born there, and then moved here and obtained citizenship in the U.S. Otherwise, yer just black. I used blacks as an example, but that goes for people of any color or background. If you were born here, you're simply American or Canadian. Rant over.




Maybe I'm just an asshole, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.


See, when you say shit like that you just seem like a closet racist to me. That's shit that only white people run their mouths about.

And yes, you probably are an asshole. It's all good though.


I'm not trying to start shit here. I would really like to know why this makes me sound like a closet racist. My point is that people born here, whether in Canada or the US, are simply citizens of that country. Seems more inclusive and anti-racist to me. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

In my opinion it makes people feel included in the majority, rather than excluded and on the outside.

Kid Ugly - 7-8-2006 at 02:31 PM

Symbols are one thing, but what about a sign that says "Trucks Over 4 Tons Excluded"? i remember a couple years back this was an issue in the news because there was a construction driver driving a truck full of sand. He was pulled over for one reason or another and was either arrested or summonsed for not knowing English. I can't say that I agree with driving and not knowing the main language.

Voodoobillyman - 7-9-2006 at 10:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaveMoral
Quote:
Originally posted by Discipline
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveMoral
Quote:
Originally posted by godabandonedme
No. And Joe Vento is right they shouldn't get a fucking cheesesteak either. If you live here you are an American, not Cuban-American, Mexican-American etc. etc. In America we speak English.


There's a reason people identify with their nation of origin/ethnic origin and append "American" to it.... it always always has to do with societal discrimination against their people. Irish American African American or Mexican American... all have been discriminated against by the American "mongrel" system. People were made to feel like they were less human because of their ethnicity, and also made feel less American, so they take pride in their ethnicity and symbolically show they are just as American as us white American mongrels.


As a side note in reply to this, I have to say I refuse to use terms like "African-American" and things like that. MOst of the people who refer to themselves that way were born here, as were many generations of their family. There's nothing African about them. It could also be considered offensive to the many thousands upon thousands of Africans who are white. Why should African mean only black? The only way I would consider a person African-American is if they were born there, and then moved here and obtained citizenship in the U.S. Otherwise, yer just black. I used blacks as an example, but that goes for people of any color or background. If you were born here, you're simply American or Canadian. Rant over.




Maybe I'm just an asshole, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.


See, when you say shit like that you just seem like a closet racist to me. That's shit that only white people run their mouths about.
And yes, you probably are an asshole. It's all good though.



I've met plenty of "other than white people" who run their mouths the same way. Racism is a two way street, and the way I percieve it, alot of black people who have never even had so much as second hand story experience of slavery and such in this country act like they are still owed something. And forget about their racism right? because they have justification to hate. It's bullshit.

DaveMoral - 7-10-2006 at 09:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Discipline
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveMoral
Quote:
Originally posted by Discipline
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveMoral
Quote:
Originally posted by godabandonedme
No. And Joe Vento is right they shouldn't get a fucking cheesesteak either. If you live here you are an American, not Cuban-American, Mexican-American etc. etc. In America we speak English.


There's a reason people identify with their nation of origin/ethnic origin and append "American" to it.... it always always has to do with societal discrimination against their people. Irish American African American or Mexican American... all have been discriminated against by the American "mongrel" system. People were made to feel like they were less human because of their ethnicity, and also made feel less American, so they take pride in their ethnicity and symbolically show they are just as American as us white American mongrels.


As a side note in reply to this, I have to say I refuse to use terms like "African-American" and things like that. MOst of the people who refer to themselves that way were born here, as were many generations of their family. There's nothing African about them. It could also be considered offensive to the many thousands upon thousands of Africans who are white. Why should African mean only black? The only way I would consider a person African-American is if they were born there, and then moved here and obtained citizenship in the U.S. Otherwise, yer just black. I used blacks as an example, but that goes for people of any color or background. If you were born here, you're simply American or Canadian. Rant over.




Maybe I'm just an asshole, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.


See, when you say shit like that you just seem like a closet racist to me. That's shit that only white people run their mouths about.

And yes, you probably are an asshole. It's all good though.


I'm not trying to start shit here. I would really like to know why this makes me sound like a closet racist. My point is that people born here, whether in Canada or the US, are simply citizens of that country. Seems more inclusive and anti-racist to me. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

In my opinion it makes people feel included in the majority, rather than excluded and on the outside.


I'm not trying to start shit either. I'm just telling the truth dude. That's the way I see it, and that's the way many people I know would see it. You're devaluing the very long history of dehumanization placed upon certain groups of people in both our countries by state and federal constitutions/laws, laws that garaunteed the lesser status of those people under their rule... it made them less American. That didn't cease with the repeal of said laws either, it continued overly through to the day when the Civil Rights Act was passed..... and does indeed continue to this very day. Slavery has never been the sole expression of institutional racism in any country... especially not the United States. Literally the only times I've ever heard anyone express disgust at appending "American" to an ethnic descriptor is very political black people who refuse to falsely append the term "American" to themselves when they feel that the American government continues to work to disenfranchise them and keep them out of the circle, so to speak. Many politicized American Indians likewise hold a great deal of disdain for the term "Native American" for the same reasons.

As for reparations.... they were promised and never delivered.. same with the majority of treaties made with American Indians. Institutional racism has led to the criminalization of ghettos and barrios, and to this day that legacy is lived. You guys act like you resent people for calling our white-led government and society to task for the crimes our ancestors perpetrated against their's. Each and every white person has benefitted from the oppression and tyranny of the last 500 years on this continent and yet you're bitching and moaning because some folks don't want to let bygones be bygones while their families have been put into situations that are often irreversible. A little hard work will go a long way, but you can't deny that the inner city has been denied an equivalent education and that opportunities are far less for inner city black and latino youth than for white kids all over.

RomanticViolence - 7-10-2006 at 11:48 PM

Quote:
Originally said by White Trash Rob
I never had enough money! Or enough Privilige to be white!Im white trash!
And society better learn how to recognize the difference.

tireironsaint - 7-11-2006 at 12:57 AM

Dave, without being some PC asshole, I am as anti-racist as they come and you are coming off as ridiculous here. No offense, but to say that every white person has benefitted from slavery is complete and utter bullshit. Take a look at the real history instead of the version handed out in school and Black History Month pamphlets. There were actually more people of white European background serving as slaves (under various names) in this country at the time of the slave trade than blacks. On top of that, those white "indentured servants" were seen as much less valuable than black slaves and were treated worse in many cases. It was common to work the white "servants" to death because there was a supposed limited amount of time that they could be treated this way and it was cheaper for their owners to get as much labor out of them in as short a time as possible than to continue feeding housing them.

By no means am I trying to say that any slavery is good or belittling black slavery, but to make all racism about slavery and only something that can come from whites is bullshit. The problems are much more about class and money than about race ever will be or ever was. And please don't give me any of that bullshit about this supposedly being a "classless society", we all are smart enough to realize what a crock of shit that is and to see it for a waste of breath.

DaveMoral - 7-11-2006 at 05:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tireironsaint
Dave, without being some PC asshole, I am as anti-racist as they come and you are coming off as ridiculous here. No offense, but to say that every white person has benefitted from slavery is complete and utter bullshit. Take a look at the real history instead of the version handed out in school and Black History Month pamphlets. There were actually more people of white European background serving as slaves (under various names) in this country at the time of the slave trade than blacks. On top of that, those white "indentured servants" were seen as much less valuable than black slaves and were treated worse in many cases. It was common to work the white "servants" to death because there was a supposed limited amount of time that they could be treated this way and it was cheaper for their owners to get as much labor out of them in as short a time as possible than to continue feeding housing them.

By no means am I trying to say that any slavery is good or belittling black slavery, but to make all racism about slavery and only something that can come from whites is bullshit. The problems are much more about class and money than about race ever will be or ever was. And please don't give me any of that bullshit about this supposedly being a "classless society", we all are smart enough to realize what a crock of shit that is and to see it for a waste of breath.


I live under no illusions that this is a classless society, I think I've pretty much put that out there. I'm also NOT trying to make this entire thread or my statements about racism all about slavery... in fact, I've said above that racism in America goes very much beyond slavery so please re-read what I've written. White people have indeed benefitted from the oppression of the non-white in large numbers, 50 years ago even lower class whites had better access to good education than did non-whites.

It was other posters that were trying to make the legacy of racism disappear at the end of slavery, not me.

Also, with regards to indentured servitude.... by the 1820s white indentured servitude was almost completely phased out, while black slavery had become the dominant source of unpaid labor, Prior to this there was legislation that had been enacted over the years that helped to phase out white indentured servitude and convert black indentured servitude to out and out slavery. In large part this was to keep the white lower class and black lower class segregated along racial lines. The method included not only the notion of some sort of inherent superiority to the supposedly naturally "inferior" blacks, but certain priviledges that were not awarded to black indentured servants. In fact, there was a case where 2 white indentured servants and one black indentured servant escaped from their master... and upon being captured the whites had 4 years extra tacked onto their servitude while the black fellow was sentenced to lifelong slavery no matter where the master resided. Basically the ruling class tossed a bone to the white lower class, and made restrictions on the mingling of whites with blacks while they further restricted the freedoms and priviledges of blacks and other non-whites until they had slavery. We could go on and on about other cases of white people who were technically not considered white by the ruling class, such as the Irish, and go on about conscription and what not... but that's not going to get us anywhere.

'saint, I would love to see some documentation of what you're saying about white indentured servitude... I'm not challenging you, I'm just interested in more information in that regard. Particularly the idea that they were considered "less valuable" than slaves and their numbers supposedly being greater.

Discipline - 7-11-2006 at 05:58 PM

Dave, as to your point of reparations being promised and not paid I have to say I'm all for them NOT being paid. Why should the taxpayers of today be forced to pay for the misdeeds of others. This is a problem with me right now, as the Canadian government is in the process of laying out a formal apology and some reparations to "Chinese Canadians" and their decendants who were forced to pay a head tax to come into Canada back in the late 1800's up through the early 1900's. I take issue with this because while the law that required this head tax was racist, it wasn't put in place or enforced by people who are still around. (If they are around they're old as fuck) I haven't heard one good argument towards this. I'm even against the official apology, because in essence it is the Canada of today apologizing for the Canada of yesterday. We aren't responsible for what happened, so why are we apologizing for it? All it does is stir up more problems in an already unstable population.

As for black reparations in the US, ever seen the skit Dave Chappelle did on that? While satire, it did hold a lot of truth. A lot of that money would be wasted on stupidity.

I don't condone things that were done in the past, and will be the first to admit they were racist acts that are morally reprehensible.

Will I apologize for said acts? Not a chance in hell. I won't apologize or pay for something that was done in the past.

Minor Threat's "Guilty of Being White" has stuck with me since the first time I heard it many years ago.

DaveMoral - 7-12-2006 at 06:47 PM

I hate that song, and I think Ian MacKaye is a turd. First off.

As for reparations.... the government and the society of today was built upon the legacy of the government and society of the era in which institutional racism was legislated. Do "we", white society that is, bear a responsibility to the descendants of the victims of such policies... hell yeah we do. What form that should take I can't tell you, what I can tell is that there is a reason the populations of our respective countries are segregated to this day... especially along economic lines and those lines are disproportionately drawn along racial lines.

Neither you, nor I, or any other individual white skinned person should be running around apologizing for what white people did a little over a century ago.... or for that matter, 50 years ago. I'm not a huge believer in the notion of inherited sin. What I'm getting at is that our society as a whole and our countries do bear a responsibility to the descendants of those previously tyrannized for our countries' and society's benefit because the descendants do bear the legacy of their ancestors.

I'm sure we'll ultimately have to agree to disagree, and at the end of the day I'm quite certain we're not that different. But I see some of your attitudes regarding immigration and language barries, as well as ethnic identities and national citizenship to be somewhat bigoted and that shit just strikes me as wrong and back asswards. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you're wrong.... and maybe we're both a little wrong. We're all just working stiffs trying to make our way in a world that seems set against us, regardless of language or ethnicity. Maybe I'm a bleeding heart.... God only knows.

JawnDiablo - 7-12-2006 at 07:02 PM

We're all just working stiffs trying to make our way in a world that seems set against us,
well put Dave

Discipline - 7-12-2006 at 08:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juandiablo
We're all just working stiffs trying to make our way in a world that seems set against us,
well put Dave


Agreed. Once again I'm proud that the folks here actually have discussions, rather than breaking down into pointless name calling.

DaveMoral - 7-13-2006 at 05:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Discipline
Quote:
Originally posted by juandiablo
We're all just working stiffs trying to make our way in a world that seems set against us,
well put Dave


Agreed. Once again I'm proud that the folks here actually have discussions, rather than breaking down into pointless name calling.


Me too. Any other forum and I swear shit would have hit the fan.