Religous/Political Nuts

godabandonedme - 7-14-2006 at 02:02 AM

Bug the shit out of me. Seriously. Trying to have an intelligent conversation with some of these people over the validity of the bible as a historical log and why hamas should keep fighting is seriously impossible.

gavin - 7-14-2006 at 02:10 AM

and why hamas should keep fighting is seriously impossible.

explain please

godabandonedme - 7-14-2006 at 02:22 AM

Not hamas or any militant group, just a point that's all. Look, this area has been the center of conflict for thousands of years. In the late 40's Israel claims well...Israel, little fighting etc. Ok I'm good with this so far, hey that's how nations are built. However, to say that these people are wrong for fighting for what they believe to be theirs is absurd. If a bunch of Mormons came to whatever state you live in, planted a flag and said this is now ours, wouldn't you fight? That may seem like a far cry from what's going on over there but it's really not. Lastly, the information the west recieves about what's really going on over there is shaky at best. All I'm saying is before you get into a huge debate and start calling people who are only doing what you would monsters, find out a little more and stop taking fox news an msnbc as absolute truth.

gavin - 7-14-2006 at 02:27 AM

didnt the U.S. give israel that land after winning ww2?

godabandonedme - 7-14-2006 at 02:36 AM

No.

gavin - 7-14-2006 at 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by godabandonedme
No.

ya sure?

godabandonedme - 7-14-2006 at 02:44 AM

If it was a axis province granted to the jewish people post wwII it still wasn't a country/state untill after more fighting (that continues today) between the people already there.

godabandonedme - 7-14-2006 at 02:46 AM

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to take sides here. I'm all for manifest(sp?) destiny etc.
But to question the motives of the conqoured is absurd. Who wouldn't fight when being opressed?

tireironsaint - 7-14-2006 at 02:58 AM

You're all for Manifest Destiny, really? No offense, but I'm kinda doubting you know what you're talking about in this thread.

godabandonedme - 7-14-2006 at 03:07 AM

Using it loosely, the basic point that nations concour, war happens, it will always happen. In this particular region it's been going on for thousands of years. It wouldn't be any different if it were Iran doing the same thing. Who's to say it's right (manifest destiny here) I can't really say, but it's inevitable I guess. However, I can say that to fight back is not anything but normal.

tireironsaint - 7-14-2006 at 03:34 AM

I'm not arguing that people are going to fight on something like that. Right or wrong, if people believe that they have a right to lands that someone else is claiming, there's probably gonna be a fight. My only point is that I don't think all of the terms you're using here mean what you seem to think they do. Manifest Destiny seems to be a prime example of that, which is why I provided that link. As for the point MrBadVibes brought up, Israel was created as a City State at the end of the war. It has existed historically, but that is when it became the legal homeland of the Jewish people and what people refer to as Israel in general today. If you are saying something beyond that about Israel, it's not really clear what you're trying to say.

godabandonedme - 7-14-2006 at 03:40 AM

I'm not trying to say anything more. Like I said if it was Iran or any other country doing to same I would still have the same opinon. My point is, actually more of a question, how can you consider fighting for you country, homes, families etc. terrorism?

upyerbum - 7-14-2006 at 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Boycott Christian HC

And the mission of both is to blow up as many innocent people as possible.

Thats an incredibly ignorant statement. This is all the fault of US and British foreign policy. Sorry guys, but you made your bed. Your government is responsible for far more deaths internationally on a daily basis than "Al Queda" could ever hope to be. You guys need to seriously wake the fuck up as a nation.

barc0debaby - 7-14-2006 at 10:48 AM

The process of Israels creation started long before the war, in the late 1800's zionists and jews escaping persecution purchased from Ottoman and Arab land owners. Immigration to Israel, called Aliyah, came in five different waves spanning the period from around 1880 to after the second world war. At the end of this period over 600,000 had immigrated into what was to become Israel. Britain, who was selected as mandate over the region by the post WW1 Allied powers, passed laws to limit Jewish immigration and restricted how much land they could purchase to try to quell Arab frustrations. As tensions rose Britain decided to withdrawl its administrative position over Palestine. The United Nations then decided to split the country into two states, about 55% of the land for Israeli and 45% for the Arabs. A year later the Israeli state was proclaimed.

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But how is sympathising with Palestinians terrorists any different from sympathy for Al Qaeda/Jihadists? The Jihadist movement is basically based on the Palestinian question, isn't it. And the mission of both is to blow up as many innocent people as possible. So why should the Palestinians be somehow exempt from the war on terror?

Not to condone Palestinian action in this conflict, but the acts of the Israeli goverment can also be seen as state terror. In order to stop terrorists from moving supplies in underground tunnels, Israeli troops will move into a town that is suspected, not necessarily known to have terrorist activity and bulldoze houses. If the family does not leave the house they will be fired upon and will be torn down with them still in. You might remember a filmmaker by the name of James Miller who was making a documentary for HBO on the effect that the violent conflict was having on the regions children. He was shot dead by an Israeli soldier during one of these raids. Mr. Miller had been wearing specific clothing that identified himself as a correspondent and even had his camera on up to the time of his death.

godabandonedme - 7-14-2006 at 11:08 AM

That documentary was really good by the way. Saying that these people are the same as Al Qaeda is ridiculous. These are people who are being occupied by a foreign nation.

Murk - 7-14-2006 at 04:17 PM

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Palestinian sympathy is very fashionable

second only to sympathy for Israel.

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But how is sympathising with Palestinians terrorists any different from sympathy for Al Qaeda/Jihadists?

the people who fought for American independence weren't exactly held in a positive light by the England either. i'm sure George Washington was painted as a terrorist leader.

James Madison, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson were likely viewed in a negative light as well.

remember the Boston Tea Party? a response to the Boston Massacre.

The Battles of Lexington and Concord.

The Minutemen.

action, reaction.

gavin - 7-14-2006 at 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Murk

Quote:

Palestinian sympathy is very fashionable

second only to sympathy for Israel.

Quote:

But how is sympathising with Palestinians terrorists any different from sympathy for Al Qaeda/Jihadists?

i support israel
i support them because they are an extention of the U.S.
BUT i dont support any country where any sort of religion is its driving force, israel included

FUCK ALL RELIGION AND THE BULLSHIT IT BRINGS

and to compare these things to terrorism is fucked
so ya know

i dont hear all that many supporting israel
i hear more sympathy for palistinians anymore

blah, im bored with all this

i hate all opinions on everything

DaveMoral - 7-14-2006 at 06:34 PM

Mawt li Isra'il!

Seriously, Israel was established as a Jewish state with the rights of non-Jews as a secondary consideration and all this notion of that state being "democratic" are bluntly put..... bullshit. Iran is more democratic.

The Sons of Liberty were considered a street gang by the Brittish in the revolutionary era, and you can bet the founding fathers and the Continental Army were considered the equivalent of terrorists in those days. John Brown was considered a terrorist for his actions against what abolitionists called the "Slave Power" in the years leading up to the American Civil War... Lincoln himself said the man deserved to die for his actions at Harper's Ferry where he and a cadre of men, both black and white, took over an armory to distribute weapons to slaves that they apparently erroneously assumed would rebel and join them. All of these men in US history made decisions I would like to think I would make, and people overseas are making the same decisions I would make.

How many Irish Americans condemn Hamas and Hizbullah and yet love the IRA? Same premise with all three groups. Micheal Collins is a hero to me, as is Hassan Nasrullah, just as are John Brown and Nat Turner.

Really, the Israeli-Palestinian/Arab conflict is not truly about religion. Religion is merely a rallying point used by people outside that specific area of land(Israel and the Palestinian territories). Ultimately it's about one group of people arbitrarily being given control over the lands and homes of people who had been present for generation upon generation..... all based upon some weak claim over a promise made in the Bible... a questionable document to say the least. When your home is seized or bulldozed, the fruits of your labor reaped or destroyed by foreign invaders... then you will understand how Palestinians feel.

Fuck Israel and Zionazis the world over!

Discipline - 7-14-2006 at 08:24 PM

Quite an interesting read so far. I like this thread.

I've always said fuck Israel because of it's national poilicies. It seems to me though that a lot of the anti-Israel statements you hear from people are thinly-veiled statements of anti-semitism. I used to have more sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians but unfortunately they aren't as sympathetic as they used to be. Things have really gone downhill since the death of Yassar Arafat. I actually thought his passing was going to herald a positive change in things, but instead they've gotten worse. There is no way I will support Palestine as long as they have a terrorist group as their elected ruling party.

DaveMoral - 7-14-2006 at 11:07 PM

Who knows what will come of it though, the US was basically a government of terrorists by King George's standards.

tireironsaint - 7-15-2006 at 12:35 AM

Honestly, I view the word "terrorist" as a word used by those in power to discredit the actions of those who are fighting against them. The current administration's definition of the word is so vaguely phrased as to encompass just about any action they disagree with. I see our government as being happy to keep us in fear of an enemy that is, by it's very nature, impossible to pin down or fight in any real way. That's not to say that I support any of the actions that were taken against this country and certainly should not be read to imply that I think there was anything heroic or revolutionary about the cowardly acts of 9/11. I simply mean that the actions taken by people fighting the powers that be can almost always be classified as some kind of terrorism just because those who are NOT in power have no other means to attack or fight back. By definition those people cannot declare war even though in all honesty, that is what they are doing.

godabandonedme - 7-15-2006 at 01:49 AM

Again, I implore (sp?) someone to tell me with what is wrong for fighting against an occupying nation? Whether your or I want to believe it, that is what is going on over there.

DaveMoral - 7-15-2006 at 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tireironsaint
Honestly, I view the word "terrorist" as a word used by those in power to discredit the actions of those who are fighting against them. The current administration's definition of the word is so vaguely phrased as to encompass just about any action they disagree with. I see our government as being happy to keep us in fear of an enemy that is, by it's very nature, impossible to pin down or fight in any real way. That's not to say that I support any of the actions that were taken against this country and certainly should not be read to imply that I think there was anything heroic or revolutionary about the cowardly acts of 9/11. I simply mean that the actions taken by people fighting the powers that be can almost always be classified as some kind of terrorism just because those who are NOT in power have no other means to attack or fight back. By definition those people cannot declare war even though in all honesty, that is what they are doing.

My thoughts exactly, 'saint.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with fighting against an occupying nation. Good luck, however, telling the people of various nations worldwide.... especially this one... that. We're one of the most pacified nations on the planet. This fucking country came into existence because people were pissed off about taxes... almost everyone is pissed about taxes now, or how the IRS handles shit and basically trys to ruin the common man's life if he can't feasibly pay on their "preferred" method and yet everyone is all "that's just hte way it is." For a fair and democratic society with a constitution set up to enable the people to make change be it through the political system or revolutionary activity we sure are a bunch of people who just roll over and accept certain notions. I wonder just how many Americans would actually fight against an occupying force if all the same amenities were provided by them(TV, internet, video games and movies are major culprits here).

sinister - 7-15-2006 at 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tireironsaint
I view the word "terrorist" as a word used by those in power to discredit the actions of those who are fighting against them.

Agreed. A "terrorist" is someone who can't afford a plane to drop his bombs out of.

But, when you look at the methods employed by some groups, it would definitely appear that their aims are sometimes more about creating "terror" among the general population than attacking legitimate targets which are at least in some way responsible for the situation.

eg. The IRA here in the UK, I'd feel a bit more sympathy if they'd blown up a few more politicians or targeted state institutions rather than leaving car bombs in city centres to randomly kill innocent people. (But of course that situation is quite different from the Israel/Palestinian one, due to the majority of people in Northern Ireland wanting to remain part of the UK). Everytime they'd kill innocent people I'd always think it was such a waste, not just for the pointless loss of life, but 'cause it wouldn't have taken much more risk or planning to target someone who actually deserved it.

Voodoobillyman - 7-15-2006 at 05:03 PM

I say fuck em all, if we are the "terrorists" history has shown us to be, let's stop pussyfooting around and bring the massacre ( and you all know we can) to all of em. We could rain hell upon the whole Middle East, Israel included, even if it means our own demise, let's do it. Fuck em all, let their Gods sort em out. Right? Opinions are like assholes.........you know the rest. We , as a Nation, have fought with our own "humanitarian" restrictions (for the most part) for far too long, why don't we just fight like everyone else does..... in the wide open, killing everything that fucking moves. I hate Jews, I hate Muslims, I hate Christians, they all toot horns outta their assholes, fuck em all.

Voodoobillyman - 7-15-2006 at 05:15 PM

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people overseas are making the same decisions I would make.

Until you actually pick up and do something about it, it's all political debate and speculation (which gets you nowhere right? Action=Reaction). If you feel so strongly about it that you would make a statement like this, and I have seen your past statements based on the billing of an oil company local to your region, stop telephone tough guying it (or internet in this case) and do something about it. According to this line I have quoted you are ready to take up the "cause" Well aren't you angry enough at the "Zionists" in this country to do something about it? Or do you need to be there with your brothers in arms? Haven't they OPPRESSED you enough here yet? Seriously dude......Seriously. Oh, and the Quaran is no better toilet paper than the bible is, I would just as soon wipe my ass with both. Fuck Organized religion of ALL kinds. Virgins in heaven indeed, you all go to the same fuckin place the rest of us do......the fuckin worms.

Discipline - 7-15-2006 at 05:43 PM

Religion does have a serious case of the gay. All religions. None is any better or worse than the rest.

DaveMoral - 7-16-2006 at 09:49 AM

I could contribute to this shit talk, but I'm not going to sink to your level Voodoo.

Voodoobillyman - 7-16-2006 at 10:49 AM

opinions are like assholes Dave, we all got em, mine is just percieved to be lower than yours. The beauty of it all is, we can agree to disagree. I love America!!!!!!!!!!

DaveMoral - 7-16-2006 at 08:33 PM

Don't think that really has much to do with America, just true humanity.

Honestly, to look at history with the narrow viewpoint that religion is the problem is just plain blind. Religion has been used to inspire some of the worst atrocities known to man, it has also been the inspiration behind the ideas of freedom and equality. Secular ideas have likewise been, in recent history, inspiration for the worst atrocities known and have been inspiration for freedom and equality. Honestly, the problems of this world are due entirely to the greed of individuals and the notions they've promoted in the world.

Murk - 7-16-2006 at 09:13 PM

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Oh, and the Quran is no better toilet paper than the bible is, I would just as soon wipe my ass with both. Fuck Organized religion of ALL kinds.

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Religion does have a serious case of the gay. All religions. None is any better or worse than the rest.

godabandonedme - 7-17-2006 at 11:10 PM

This was just a really bad week I picked to post this, but let me say this that I know I'm going to get flack for: Mostly everyone in America thinks that what is going on over there has to do with the Muslim/Jewish thing which it does not in reality. Let's look at these two countries for a second moniterilly(sp?) wise (which if you have a brain and think, has EVERYTHING to do with how you fight or how a war is engaged.) If you are supported by pretty much the whole of the free world, (And yes I mean the biggest baddest richest U of S-A) I'm sure you will have the best of whatever armaments(sp?) that money could supply right? Including laser guided bombs (watch tv lately?), well armed/supplied troops etc. Now, say you are the opposite country and have nothing to fight back with except that which you had lying around for 30 + years or whatever 30 + year old Russian arms are smuggled to you from a few other supporting nations, how are you going to match that? You fight with and what you can right? If you only have a few sticks of dynamite and in your heart beleive your country is under threat what do you do? I would be interested in reading the newspapers(if they existed) from the 1760's-1780's Britan and see what Colonialists where described as. The word might not have existed back them but now on TV they call it a Terrorist. I am truly not trying to take sides here because I think that the Muslim/Jewish/Christan argument is a joke. I'm trying to look at it as subjetivly as I can and say hey look: 1. You have a country supplied with an unlimited amount of money/arms by the western world (if not the rest) so who is the world GOING to be told who is right/wrong? 2. You have a country/people who truly believe they are being occupied by a foreign nation, and unfortunatly the ones in power in this country have taken the reigns and forced their religon to be a major factor in this whole thing.

I'm trying to break shit down not from just what's on the news but from what I can also learn on my own. No war is fair obviously. People fight for the wrong reasons all the time. But it can't be wrong if you truly believe in it...........????

barc0debaby - 7-18-2006 at 01:15 AM

The religious argument is serious joke. The problem with the majority of countries in the Middle East are dictatorships, when you have unstable totalitarian goverments any other turmoil is just going to escalate. A perfect example of that is the Muslim Brotherhood, which is one of the most influental political and religious forces in the Middle East. The Brotherhood is the main political opposition to goverments in countries such as Syria and Jordan, countries in which there is strong evidence of goverment support of terrorists orginazations. This organization strongly advocates social justice, political freedom, and democracy in a generally peaceful manner. In many Middle Eastern countries the brotherhood is actually banned by the corrupted and unjust goverments. The only exception to a peaceful approach is for situations of military occupation ( The Muslim Brotherhood has a history of strong hostility towards colonialism). You would think that an organization like this, that advocates many of the same things the United States is supposed to stand for would be one of our biggest allies in the region. Especially compared to Israel, our support of Israel does absolutely nothing to benefit the spread of democracy or contribute to the betterment of the region as a whole. Israel support can even be attributed to some of the general unrest in the rest of the region. I say this because Hamas is a branch of The Muslim Brotherhood, who as I stated earlier, advocate the use of force during military occupation and have a staunch anti-colonial view. Since the United States, and consequentally the other G8 powers view Hamas as a terrorist organization there are no diplomatic talks with the Brotherhood. One of the largest assets to the stability of the Middle East is therefore ruled out. This then leads back to the United States seemingly single minded policy on the support of the state of Israel. A possibility of spreading democracy in many countries is denied because of policies regarding one country. Going back to the religious argument about the situation, it seems to just be the easiest way to address the problem. The fourth branch of the goverment has always been a simplistic and unreliable source of information and the average citizen is not going to comprehend the delicate complexity of the situation. So it just gets labeled as religious turmoil, wrapped and packaged for the general public, and churned out on the assembly line news.

godabandonedme - 7-18-2006 at 03:45 AM

the average citizen is not going to comprehend the delicate complexity of the situation. So it just gets labeled as religious turmoil, wrapped and packaged for the general public, and churned out on the assembly line news.

Not to be a dick and cut and paste but yea that's part of the point I was trying to make.

Voodoobillyman - 7-18-2006 at 08:28 AM

I believe it all goes back to Religion fundamentally. Yes it is further complicated by money, politics and general power struggles, but that is all born of religious differences from the start. Look at the name of the group you claim could be the key to peace in that region "The MUSLIM Brotherhood" They are completely identified by their belief system. Titles like Crusaders, Zionists, fundamental extremists and the like totally back the Religious argument. And now.......I am spent.

DaveMoral - 7-18-2006 at 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
I believe it all goes back to Religion fundamentally. Yes it is further complicated by money, politics and general power struggles, but that is all born of religious differences from the start. Look at the name of the group you claim could be the key to peace in that region "The MUSLIM Brotherhood" They are completely identified by their belief system. Titles like Crusaders, Zionists, fundamental extremists and the like totally back the Religious argument. And now.......I am spent.

The Muslim Brotherhood's main platform is Islam and what Islam demands of it's followers. Social justice, resistance to foreign occupation etc. Hizbullah is basically the Shi'a version of Muslim Brotherhood, though they could technically have members who are not Muslim. From what I've read, and that was Hizb'ullah Religion and Politics and Hezbollah Born With a Vengence, there actually are some Sunni and Christian members in Hizbullah.

Also, regardless of any rationalizations that the Western world has made for Israel's existence... to have simply formed the nation as reaction to 1) Jewish terrorism against the Brittish colonial presence in Palestine and 2) collective guilt over the Holocaust and displace the people currently residing on the land and leaving them without a say in what happens to them and the places they and their families lived for generations is beyond abhorrent and not exactly in accord with our supposed democratic values. Regardless of whether or not Palestinians were doing anything "productive" with the land..... and one must question, productive for who?

The main reason the US doesn't bother with the Muslim Brotherhood is they would likely not want the US involved in their countries' affairs. And particularly not economically. Thus the US gives supports to autocrats that do engage with US economically. Take Saudi Arabia as an example, one of the worst regimes in the history of the region but our government is their biggest fan.