A slight overreaction?

Discipline - 9-18-2006 at 12:28 PM

Crazy fuckers

JawnDiablo - 9-18-2006 at 01:02 PM

the pope smokes dope....

clevohardcore - 9-18-2006 at 01:37 PM

Does anyone including our media see the irony hear? They are reporting it like The Pope directly insulted them with threats. And the Muslim authorities and people are overreacting with violence. The Pope reads from a several hundred year text that described Muslims as violent savages and the present day Muslims actually react with threats and violence. AMAZING.

clevohardcore - 9-18-2006 at 01:38 PM

hear = here

serenity - 9-18-2006 at 02:11 PM

and once again islam proves itself to be the worst religion. ever.

Discipline - 9-18-2006 at 02:18 PM

Fuck the Middle East.

serenity - 9-18-2006 at 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline
Fuck the Middle East.

Fuck the Middle East.

MyOwnWay - 9-18-2006 at 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by clevohardcore The Pope reads from a several hundred year text that described Muslims as violent savages and the present day Muslims actually react with threats and violence.

Such a true statement, I had to quote it.

Voodoobillyman - 9-18-2006 at 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MyOwnWay

Quote:

Originally posted by clevohardcore The Pope reads from a several hundred year text that described Muslims as violent savages and the present day Muslims actually react with threats and violence.

Such a true statement, I had to quote it.

It does make Islamic Nations and the people therein look pretty fuckin dumb at the moment. Don't forget, the West will be defeated and they will spill our liquor and make us pay a head tax and we have two choices............convert to Islam or be beheaded. They actually said we would face the sword if not willing to convert, which is exactly what the Pope quoted. Talk about ironic! I can think of one other evil recently that had the same kind of words, and I quote "Only Sith deal in absolutes" The honorable Obi Wan Kenobi.

DaveMoral - 9-18-2006 at 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by serenity
and once again islam proves itself to be the worst religion. ever.

Fuck you.

The Catholic religion was responsible for institutionally slaughtering millions of people..... INCLUDING Muslims. The Pope's sentiment and refusal to explain himself and what he meant with quoting the text OR apologizing smacks of the attitudes of the Popes that ordered the Crusades. So fuck you and your back asswards pagan country.

DaveMoral - 9-18-2006 at 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman

Quote:

Originally posted by MyOwnWay

Quote:

Originally posted by clevohardcore The Pope reads from a several hundred year text that described Muslims as violent savages and the present day Muslims actually react with threats and violence.

Such a true statement, I had to quote it.

And to that I'll quote Anakin Skywalker "You're either with me or against me" and add to that a parallel quote from GWB "You're either with us or with the terrorists."

DeathByForce - 9-18-2006 at 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral

Quote:

Originally posted by serenity
and once again islam proves itself to be the worst religion. ever.

Pagan?

Heh heh.. I wish! At least we'd be cooler than a religion that oppresses women. That's a mans job

gavin - 9-18-2006 at 07:34 PM

all religion makes me wanna puke
if its your thing, more power to ya
but ya might as well believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus too

Voodoobillyman - 9-18-2006 at 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman

Quote:

Originally posted by MyOwnWay

Quote:

Originally posted by clevohardcore The Pope reads from a several hundred year text that described Muslims as violent savages and the present day Muslims actually react with threats and violence.

Such a true statement, I had to quote it.

And to that I'll quote Anakin Skywalker "You're either with me or against me" and add to that a parallel quote from GWB "You're either with us or with the terrorists."

Anakin, was of course evil by this point, and GW, well, I support him, but I'm not foolish enough to buy into ALL of his bullshit, he is after all, a polotician. So again I say, Muslims are wrong, making themselves look like the beasts the Pope quoted this emporer as percieving them. They need to practice what they preach, the world is not a one sided road. And for your argument on the Catholic church and it's wrong doings, your absolutely right, but two wrongs do not make a right, even Allah knows that. And although I DO like you Dave, if your so fed up with "Western" ways and want Zion to fall and Muslims to accomplish their goals of Islamic globalization, why not move to the Middle East and take up the fight of your brethren? The fact still remains that Muslims are pissing and moaning because someone called them out and then they fall right into it by retorting with exactly the kind of argument they claim to be unfairly betrothed upon their "peacefull" religion. It's not all fundamentalists and extremists in the streets crying injustice and calling for Christians heads. Just seems dumb is all, plain dumb. I'm going to keep on fightin what I believe is the good fight though. Organized religion of ALL backgrounds and ethnicities is warped by those who ae smart enough to fool the rest of the "sheep" into following whichever fairy tale makes the most sense to them.

Discipline - 9-18-2006 at 09:33 PM

The lyrics to "Moral Majority" by DK say all that needs to be said.

As does my opinion of fuck the Middle East.

clevohardcore - 9-18-2006 at 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral

Quote:

Originally posted by serenity
and once again islam proves itself to be the worst religion. ever.

^^^^^ Dave the Muslim religion is not one to point fingers to who has murdered the most. Seriously its like that rediculous quote that people say but I will get wrong. "Pot calling the kettle black" Or something to that effect. Seriously bro. Muslims are extreme and they are vicious. Are Catholics? Religion is emotion and belief. Some use mass murder to get the point across. Its wrong. Thats not God. Thats not religion. That is murder. Threatening to behead the Pope because he was reading a text written in I believe the 15th century is not right.

In fact I like the fact that the Pope did NOT apologize for reading text. that is what he did for a living before he became Pope. He was a Professor and he was reciting history.

the Pope apologized for people getting angry at what he read. He did not apologize for reading it.

So Dave is what you are saying is that if you read something that may go against your religion then people must be beheaded for it? Don't forget that your Koran in you house is something that you could be persecuted for by other religions, but in America you have the right to read it. In fact you could become a teacher and teach it. In America you can. However in Pakistan, Iran, wherever that would be impossible.

JawnDiablo - 9-18-2006 at 10:13 PM

after reading all this stufff im moving on over to bangedup.com
goodnite!

Discipline - 9-18-2006 at 10:44 PM

Good call

serenity - 9-19-2006 at 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral

Quote:

Originally posted by serenity
and once again islam proves itself to be the worst religion. ever.

no no, fuck YOU. there is no place for islam in the west, and i hope people will realize it before its too late.

i dont care what catholicism has done in the past, because i would rather have it here than islam which preaches no use of alcohol and oppressing women.

DaveMoral - 9-19-2006 at 06:05 PM

Islam does not preach "oppressing women." In fact, if you'd do a little research you'd find that Islam was the first religion... that's right first religion... to actually grant women rights. Judaism and Christianity certainly didn't... in fact, one of the rallying calls against Islam and Muslims during the Crusades era was that they gave their women too many rights. Islam was also a MAJOR step for the Arab world in a time when they would bury infant girls alive because they wanted male heirs. The Qur'an calls that practice out specifically. Islam banned a form of divorce that was prevelent among the Arabs where-in they would say "you are to me as my mother" and walk away. Women were treated like chattle.

And so what if Islam preaches that drinking alcohol is a sin??? Many Christians believe the same thing, so does Buddhism. Do THEY have no place in the West?

You're such a fuckin' twit though, all this bullshit you're saying is a product of centuries of Islamophobia and reactionary bullshit to a select few that have attacked Western nations for either real or percieved transgressions against them or their people. It disgusts me that you've got such a narrow point of view that you can't see the flaws in our own Western system. We've had some good advances, some good points... but we've also had some very serious fuck-ups that have impacted literally the entire globe.

We're in an age when petty nationalisms and patriotisms should be at an end, and we should be thinking of ourselves living in the global community that we do.

DaveMoral - 9-19-2006 at 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by clevohardcore

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral

Quote:

Originally posted by serenity
and once again islam proves itself to be the worst religion. ever.

For one, you're right MUSLIMS are not ones to point fingers about who is responsible for more death and destruction in the world... though one could definitely argue that the West is by far heavier in this category due simply to technological ability. But we don't have to go there. The only reason I bring up Catholic atrocities ordered under the Pope, and mind you Muslims have never had such an institution ordering them to wars and such for no one that has ever been in any significant sort of religio-political role similar to the Papacy has been considered infallible(excepting one occasion which was the 4th Caliph 'Ali ibn Abu Talib and he was only considered infallible by the Shi'ites as their 1st Imam... all the others have been categorically kept out of power by caliphate dynasties). Islam is not some monolithic body where one and only one understanding of the religion is taught or believed. That is shown quite clearly in Iraq and with the fact that there are over 1 billion Muslims on this planet and the majority are not causing violence. Were we doing such this planet would be a hell. It is simply incongruous to call out Islam as "the most violent religion" without counting 2,000 years of atrocity committed by Christians... much of which was done under order from a Papal throne that to this day is considered "infallible." Technically, the Catholic Church is probably the only monolithic entity that one can ascribe acts of violence to. Islam is an idea, not an institution.

No where in my "fuck you" to serenity's ignorant statements did I once justify what Muslims are doing in reaction to the Pope... I didn't bother to even address those things. No where in my criticisms of Western policies towards the Middle East, and you've got to admit that those policies have been besmurched by the Crusader mentality to the present point, did I make even any sort of implication that I believe life to be so much better under Arab rule or Persian rule.... I think the entire world is pretty fucked up. Dude, we've got Buddhist dictatorships further east... Buddhist! This notion that you can't be critical of your home culture and still live with the boons it has to offer is rediculous. Just as rediculous as the idea that Islam has no place in the West.

The religion of Islam, the idea of Islam, takes on a certain local flavor wherever you find it. In Southeast Asian the practice of Islam is quite distinct from that of Arabs... and certain regions of Arabia are very distinct from other regions. Persian practice of Islam is distinctly Persian, Iranians still celebrate Zoroastrian holidays like Nowruz. African Muslims have a distinct feel... both West and East. American Muslims are yet again different. PUNK ROCK Muslims are even more different and distinct. You should see Chinese Muslims... their mosques are beautiful, and in the style of pagodas. How enriched was Spanish culture by the Moors? Everywhere Muslims go they enrich the already existing culture.

You could blame the idea of Islam for Arab mysogyny, sure... that's the excuse they use now. That, however, is not Islam. Just as Carnivale is not Catholicism. There are certain cultural practices that religion cannot wipe-out, no matter how devoted the people are or claim to be.

Also, regarding the Pope's speech... the dude has withdrawn from the inter-faith dialogue that John Paul II started and I've seen statements from many people who read the transcript from his speech in Germany where he quoted the Manuel II's document, both in German and translated to English, that it was definitely aimed at being condescending towards Islam and other faiths generally than Catholicism. I don't see angry protests and death threats in this case much different than angry protests CD crushings and death threats aimed at the Dixie Chicks for their statements about Bush. Once again, a big case of the pot calling the kettle black eh?

upyerbum - 9-19-2006 at 07:55 PM

Religion is the excuse. Don't fall into the trap fella's. They want you to fight over religion so nobody sees whats really going on. Didn't anyone on this board read Machievelli?

RomanticViolence - 9-19-2006 at 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBadVibes
all religion makes me wanna puke
if its your thing, more power to ya
but ya might as well believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus too

I feel the same way about this.
That is all.

Discipline - 9-19-2006 at 09:22 PM

I hate all religions, but I hate the Muslim religion the most. Nothing will ever change that point of view. Call it prejudicial if you want, doesn't bother me one bit.

This next statement may sound ignorant and I don't care: FUCK ISLAM.!!!

I still think yer a cool guy Dave, but I'll never change my stance in regards to this topic.

clevohardcore - 9-19-2006 at 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by upyerbum
Religion is the excuse. Don't fall into the trap fella's. They want you to fight over religion so nobody sees whats really going on. Didn't anyone on this board read Machievelli?

^^^^^^^^ You could even say that to the tune of Karl Marx. However religion is something that carries people through times of lost hope. I brings people together much more than it destroys no matter with most religions.

Face it Dave you are biased. Your arguements come from your point of view. Much like others here that feel religion is not important. Muslims hate me simply because of who I am. Muslims hate all of us that do not follow their rule. Mostly of us in the United States. I never met them and they never met me. If someone has judged me before they have ever met me or us then we have a problem. Its that simple.

MyOwnWay - 9-19-2006 at 11:05 PM

Noone makes a valid point when your argument resorts to name calling. If you have an opinion, cool. Speak out. But dont expect others to buy into your thoughts or even believe what you say when you use adolescent antics to try and make the other seem inferior.

Be honest.
Consistent.
And direct.

...Now carry on.

DaveMoral - 9-19-2006 at 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by clevohardcore

Face it Dave you are biased. Your arguements come from your point of view. Much like others here that feel religion is not important. Muslims hate me simply because of who I am. Muslims hate all of us that do not follow their rule. Mostly of us in the United States. I never met them and they never met me. If someone has judged me before they have ever met me or us then we have a problem. Its that simple.

That's a radical over generalization. One could also say that Americans hate Muslims simply because of who they are... and that would be proven due to America's biased policies against Iran since the people overthrew the Shah's tyrannical rule. He was a close ally of the US... Carter praised him for his handling of public and clerical opposition to his rule, he killed thousands.

clevohardcore - 9-20-2006 at 09:35 AM

ALl I know is when I see Muslims buring the United States flag and burning images of our leaders I see hate. Is that "Hate crimes"? Becasue if it were happeneing here that is what out media would call it as well as Muslims in the United States. If citizens in the US began to do demonstrations like that and parade around the Muslims everywhere would have a fit.

Look Dave your cool with me, but understand me and many others on this board may not agree with you. The good thing about THORP is like Rodney King we can "all get along"

Voodoobillyman - 9-20-2006 at 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral

Quote:

When they overthrew the Shah's rule, they also stormed the US Embassy and took AMERICAN hostages. This has alot to do with our pulling all diplomatic ties and reshaping policies toward Iran. If your going to make a point, don't be like those we have been discussing here and pick and choose different aspects of a situation or philosophy to make your points. The whole picture speaks volumes about both sides of this struggle, right and wrong. Also on that note, they went from one evil to another, the fundamentalists who replaced the Shah were really no better than him as far as tactics used for political purposes. I realize we will not convince you of our views, but trust me, you are not convincing anyone here of yours either. These opposing views are one of the greatest things about this country. It is also one of the types of things that would be considered illegal and punishable in these countries you seem so hellbent on defending. Do you believe for one second I could publicly state I do not believe in Allah and get away with it in Iran? I would face some form of repercussion. Religion being used for government policy is wrong, no matter what form of Religion.

Voodoobillyman - 9-20-2006 at 10:33 AM

Quote:

If citizens in the US began to do demonstrations like that and parade around the Muslims everywhere would have a fit.

Hell, you saw how they reacted to CARTOONS published in a FREE country. And now murdering a Nun who apparently was telling these fucking douchebags she forgave them as she died over a quote from a 600 year old dead man which was taken WAY out of context by people who seem unable to think logically. If we began to form publicly in this country and burn the flags of Islamic nations as well as likenesses of their political and religious leaders we would be lambasted by the rest of the world worse than we already are for taking action against those who would do us harm. I say "stay the course" and see this all the way through. Call it a "crusade" if you wish, I call it justice. The President of Iran has stated he is helping to usher in the coming of the Muslim savior Al-Mahdi for the Muslim version of Apocolypse by creating chaos in that region of the world. The man is off his rocker, he fully believes he is doing Gods (Allahs) work. And whether you believe in Religion or not, here me when I say there are people who do, fanatically, and wish to do ALL harm who do not believe the same way as they do. You can say fuck religion , I know I have issues with organized religion of ANY kind, but it may come to pass that this war comes to your doorstep whether you believe in it or not. Sides are being chosen and solidified and powerfull people on both sides of the spectrum are convinced that these are in fact the "end times" and that their respective side is in the right. All I'm saying is, todays struggles cannot be ignored by ANY person, and eventually I think we will all have to make sacrifices. If the Muslims win this "Holy War" you will ALL be forced to either A) accept Allah as your God and follow the words of Muhammad or B) eat a blade. Think about it.

Voodoobillyman - 9-20-2006 at 10:38 AM

Oh, and one last thing. Why aren't moderate and compassionate Muslims speaking out against the terror and injustice their own are dealing in? That is as criminal as the Pope not speaking out against the Jewish persecution in Nazi Europe, and we all know how that debacle was perceived.

BKT - 9-20-2006 at 02:21 PM

The Prophet Mohamand is a cunt. Islam can suck my fucking dick and while I am at it, Christans can fuck off as well.

MM.

Voodoobillyman - 9-20-2006 at 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by metal mulisha
The Prophet Mohamand is a cunt. Islam can suck my fucking dick and while I am at it, Christans can fuck off as well.

MM.

So, I'm assuming you would take the sword over conversion or acceptance if it comes down to it? So...........what have you contributed to help stop this fate for yourself and the rest of the non Muslim world? If it's up to Muslims and the teachings of their Quran, we will all be faced with this choice when Al-Mahdi returns with Jesus Christ ( who, in the Quran denies being the son of God and helps to "destroy the cross") and ushers in the destruction of all Jews, Christians and non believers. Thats EXACTLY what these people are fighting for. believe me when I tell you that whether you believe in any religion or not, if Islamic prophecy is fulfilled by the radicalists, you will die for accepting anything other than Islam . Again I say, whether you believe in any form of Religion or not, you should educate yourself on what others who are spilling blood believe and what they are striving for in the name of their Gods, knowledge is more powerfull than ignorance in any instance. VERY scary shit. This IS a WAR (and it goes much further than regional policy and oil). Don't forget that for a second. It's not just on your t.v and the time for bitching, griping and debating whether it's right or not is dangerously short. I have a child and I fear every night for her future........I'm sure you other parents do too. What we are involved in right now is more serious than the John Stewarts and Bill Mahers take it. They wont be able to complain about the oppresive leadership our enemy wants to put in place the way they can about Bush.

upyerbum - 9-20-2006 at 03:22 PM

Christ or Allah, if they step into my yard they're getting their heads blown off. I know the truth and thats all I need.

Voodoobillyman - 9-20-2006 at 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by upyerbum
Christ or Allah, if they step into my yard they're getting their heads blown off. I know the truth and thats all I need.

This is what makes America beautiful my friends.............free exercise of the 2nd and 1st Ammendments in one paragraph.

JawnDiablo - 9-20-2006 at 04:58 PM

On a lighter note, I just had a very tasty slice of pizza....

Voodoobillyman - 9-20-2006 at 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juandiablo
On a lighter note, I just had a very tasty slice of pizza....

What kind of pizza?

DaveMoral - 9-20-2006 at 05:28 PM

Muslims also couldn't possibly be seeing this as a battle for THEIR lives because they know that Christian fundamentalists are backing the US driven war because they believe that the second coming of Christ is imminent and that this war is helping to usher that forward. It couldn't possibly be that Muslims are pissed off because the West gives tacit support to Israel, supports the most radical of Zionist agendas because they believe that rebuilding Solomon's temple on the Temple Mount(to which the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa are tributes) will usher in the return of Christ.

You're right, this is the opening stages of a new round of crusades... YOU are backing the Crusaders because you erroneously believe that you'll have any sort of rights under their Christian world empire versus that of an al-Qa'ida world empire. Don't suffer under those illusions either. Call on people to wake the fuck up, but wake up yourself. The President you're backing is a puppet of the very Christian fundamentalists that I speak of.

JawnDiablo - 9-20-2006 at 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman

Quote:

Originally posted by juandiablo
On a lighter note, I just had a very tasty slice of pizza....

What kind of pizza?

oh it was breathtaking
it had
bacon
sausage
peperoni and
an unidentified meat on it
perhaps ground beef
i feel a dump coming on real soon
it was greasy to say the least

Voodoobillyman - 9-21-2006 at 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by juandiablo

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman

Quote:

Originally posted by juandiablo
On a lighter note, I just had a very tasty slice of pizza....

What kind of pizza?

oh it was breathtaking
it had
bacon
sausage
peperoni and
an unidentified meat on it
perhaps ground beef
i feel a dump coming on real soon
it was greasy to say the least

Unidentified meat heh? sounds tasty!

Voodoobillyman - 9-21-2006 at 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
Muslims also couldn't possibly be seeing this as a battle for THEIR lives because they know that Christian fundamentalists are backing the US driven war because they believe that the second coming of Christ is imminent and that this war is helping to usher that forward. It couldn't possibly be that Muslims are pissed off because the West gives tacit support to Israel, supports the most radical of Zionist agendas because they believe that rebuilding Solomon's temple on the Temple Mount(to which the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa are tributes) will usher in the return of Christ.

You're right, this is the opening stages of a new round of crusades... YOU are backing the Crusaders because you erroneously believe that you'll have any sort of rights under their Christian world empire versus that of an al-Qa'ida world empire. Don't suffer under those illusions either. Call on people to wake the fuck up, but wake up yourself. The President you're backing is a puppet of the very Christian fundamentalists that I speak of.

Dave, if you go back and carefully re-read my latest set of statements (which are my opinion, and I expect no one else to adopt) I did in fact point my finger at both sides, yes, men of power from both ends are in belief that they do Gods bidding and they are helping to usher in the coming of their respective messiahs. I back the President because I gave my word to you and everyone else in this country that I would when I swore to uphold and defend the Constitution and became a member of this countries military. It's up to voters to decide who it is that holds those reigns. Look at it this way, you only have to put up with him for two more years, then you can try and get the person you feel is right into office. Don't forget to vote in November either...........and not voting because of lack of faith in the system is a fuckin copout and I don't want to hear it. I don't accept Allah as the one true God and I do not accept Muhammad as the prophet of this God, and I will put a fucking bullet into the head of anyone who has the agenda of forcing this on me and mine.

Voodoobillyman - 9-21-2006 at 08:43 AM

To the rest of the board, I apologize for carrying this thread on, I know it's irritating, so now............I am done.

Discipline - 9-21-2006 at 11:19 AM

The whole purpose of my starting the thread was to evoke discussion, so feel free to carry on.

JawnDiablo - 9-21-2006 at 11:35 AM

I'm ready for another slice of mystery meat pizza mmmmmmm

Discipline - 9-21-2006 at 11:57 AM

I'm stopping fer a couple of slices on my way to school.

upyerbum - 9-21-2006 at 12:02 PM

I don't think its irritating. I think its good to air this stuff. You keep it bottled up and shit starts exploding. I personally, am witness to very little racism or intolerance so it always surprises me the level that it still exists outside my own little world. I'm not accusing anyone of anything with that statement, merely pointing out if we don't discuss our problems and differences how can we be aware of them.

Voodoobillyman - 9-21-2006 at 04:32 PM

Alot of my "intolerance" if you will stems from a personal experience I had in the UAE (United Arab Emirates) in the city of Dubai. It was my first deployment with the Navy and I was real green in the gills (pardon the pun) so I was out with some seasoned veterans taking in another culture. Eating their food, visiting their museums, drinking their beer and what not. Well, as we get ready to enter this nautical museum I see a man across the street in traditional garb with a woman trailing about 20 or so paces behind him. He comes up on another fellow and they begin to talk........the woman meanwhile comes up behind him and apparently gets "too close" for his liking. I shit you not when I tell you he turned without skipping a beat and hit her right in the face and proceeded to berade her with mumbo jumbo speak. She recoiled and walked back to "her place" and patiently waited for him to finish his conversation with the other raghea.......er, I mean indigenous person. I of course began to walk across the street and was stopped by a Boatswains Mate First Class who then told me that was part of their culture and "accepted"and their was nothing I could do about it. I will never forget that, and it fuels my dislike for that "culture" to this day. I am very passionate about this and always will be.

upyerbum - 9-21-2006 at 05:30 PM

Don't confuse culture with religion.

DaveMoral - 9-21-2006 at 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
Alot of my "intolerance" if you will stems from a personal experience I had in the UAE (United Arab Emirates) in the city of Dubai. It was my first deployment with the Navy and I was real green in the gills (pardon the pun) so I was out with some seasoned veterans taking in another culture. Eating their food, visiting their museums, drinking their beer and what not. Well, as we get ready to enter this nautical museum I see a man across the street in traditional garb with a woman trailing about 20 or so paces behind him. He comes up on another fellow and they begin to talk........the woman meanwhile comes up behind him and apparently gets "too close" for his liking. I shit you not when I tell you he turned without skipping a beat and hit her right in the face and proceeded to berade her with mumbo jumbo speak. She recoiled and walked back to "her place" and patiently waited for him to finish his conversation with the other raghea.......er, I mean indigenous person. I of course began to walk across the street and was stopped by a Boatswains Mate First Class who then told me that was part of their culture and "accepted"and their was nothing I could do about it. I will never forget that, and it fuels my dislike for that "culture" to this day. I am very passionate about this and always will be.

What you witnessed literally has nothing to do with Islam. Muhammad straight said "do not hit the handmaidens of God." And "the best among you is he who is best to his wife."

That sort of patriarchal bullshit was present in Arab culture long before Islam and was literally far worse before Muhammad came along. I have a dislike of Arab culture as much as the next guy, particularly because they often believe themselves to be inherently better Muslims than someone who is NOT Arab.... whilst I practice my faith and many of them do not. Believe me most of the Muslims in this world are sick and tired of Arab nationalist Wahhabis and Salafis trying to force the rest of us to adapt to their idea of the Islamic way of life.

The more you couch your disdain for Muslim extremists(I won't grant them the dignity of being referred to as "Islamic") in crusader-speak the more you're going to radicalize Muslims like me or the innocent dude that runs the falafel stand downtown. Then there'll be hell to pay... were this a war on Islam, if this turns into a war on Islam, rest assured that we will not go quietly into concentration camps like our Jewish cousins... and 1.3 billion pissed of Muslims fighting for their lives won't be a pretty site.

What I'm curious about, though, is whether or not your attidude Voodoo is standard amongst the military circles your run in. I've heard my brother, a National Guardsman, express sentiments of "I want to kill some towelheads"... but he's a Guardsman and hasn't done shit but go to basic and serve his weekend and spend a little time down south after Katrina. Is your attitude typical of the military?

Voodoobillyman - 9-22-2006 at 09:29 AM

No.......contrary to poular belief we actually think for ourselves and we don't all share the same opinion. You would be surprised to find the majority of the military is just as, if not more, critical of our Commander in Chief. And way more tolerant of your culture than most of yours are of ours. We know this war is half on the ups and half bullshit, and alot of good people died for bullshit reasons. I carry my intolerance for my own reasons, I believe moderate Muslims are not focusing their energies where they should right now. Why are they not speaking out as loudly about radicalists as they do when the Pope quotes a 600 year old dead man and made it clear the quote was not how he believed and went even further as to call it wrong. His words were picked over and chosen by Muslim leaders for their own needs. As far as Crusader speak, believe me when I tell you Dave, that with all of my heart do I wish we could co-exist in the world peacefully worshipping whatever it is that makes sense to our faith, I really do, it's part of the reason I wear my uniform. I want this all to end diplomatically just like most, I don't like seeing people die for reasons I consider foolish and I DO consider most of the reasons right now to be utterly foolish. We need leadership on both sides of this conflict to take a step back and really think about the reasons it is occuring. Yes, United States policy in the Middle East needs to change and yes Israel and Palestine need to be MADE to sit down together and really hash this out. The jews are not going anywhere whether the Arabs want them to or not. So now they have to hash out how to live amongst one another without killing each others futures by decimating one anothers peoples. Iraq was a mistake at the time it happened, it should have been handled differently, and this is where I am most critical of MY presidents decisions. He should have focused more on Afghanistan and Al Queda with their Taliban supporters. The upcoming elections are going to change alot in this country I think, hopefully for the better. It is time to heal wounds and rethink strategies. I can appreciate the difference between radical and moderate Muslims and I tend to , like most humans, categorize too broadly when impassioned. I apologize for this. Please don't think the whole of the US military is ignorant in thinking ALL Muslims are our enemies, that is most certainly not the case, not even with me. But there are a LARGE amnount who are taking up this "end times" attitude and cause and that frightens the shit out of me. I am prepared to go and do what I have to do to protect the Freedoms of this country. Please.......come election time, VOTE!! I'm sorry we have to do this on this board, I would love to meet face to face with you Dave and have a real conversation on this, I'm sure we would both walk away knowing more which is always beneficial. I will refrain from anymore derogatory remarks in reference to your beliefs, I don't want you to think of me this way, I'm really a free thinking decent person and willing to accept alot of things. I appreciate your differentiation between radical Mulsims and true followers of your faith. I need to keep that distinction in mind when passing judgements. Now.........let's all go get some mystery meat pizza and cold brews, be it beer or root beer.

Voodoobillyman - 9-22-2006 at 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by upyerbum
Don't confuse culture with religion.

also a good point and I won't make that mistake again, thanks.

upyerbum - 9-22-2006 at 10:12 PM

The Bible and the Koran are just children's stories anyway, so I don't know why everyone's so pissed. I blame Bill O'Reilly and Al-Jazeera.

DaveMoral - 9-22-2006 at 10:28 PM

Voodoo, it just distresses me to see dudes goin' off like that. I can understand the misperception of Islam because of so-called "Islamic" radicals and because of the propaganda of radical Christians... and it bothers me to no end that back-asswards Arab culture is percieved as what is Islam. That is not the case by any means.

Moreover, my culture is as American as anyone else's on this board(not counting of course our pals in Europe). I was raised next to a corn field in north central Indiana by nominally Christian parents. I converted to Islam about a month before my 21st birthday because I believe in what the Qur'an has to say and I've found alot of beauty in this religion.

Whenever anyone says "fuck Islam" or "the Muslims are going to give you the choice of conversion or the sword"(which flies in the face of the Qur'an's statement of "there is no compulsion in religion") or for that matter when certain fringe neo-cons speak openly about how good and secure it would be to intern the lot of American Muslims... it gets me a little incensed and passionate. Especially since having a kid.

I'll be honest with you and straight say that I DO see the "end times" scenario beginning to come to the fore. I see it this whole thing as a plot manipulated by forces unseen... Christians would call it the Anti-Christ and Satan, Muslims call it the Dajjal and Shaytan. It seems like the Clone Wars in Star Wars... the dark side is running the show on both sides. There're good people on both sides as well... just fighting for what they believe is right and not realizing they're being manipulated. As fucked up as blowing up buses with children, and pizza parlors is... I honestly can't fault the Palestinians for their anger and hatred and resentment. Hell, for their nihilism. This generations grandparents remember when they were driven from their homes for some "chosen people" ideal... can you imagine that? If your future had been pillaged before you were even born by foreigners you'd be pretty pissed... especially if you didn't see much hope around you. Bin Laden is this war's Dooku, and I can't even begin to fathom who the Sidious is...

upyerbum - 9-22-2006 at 10:45 PM

I've always pictured Tony Blair and Bush as Pinky and the Brain.
You know there was a time when Christians, Muslims, and Jews co-existed (much like humans and fish) peacefully, and shared their knowledge. It spawned The Renaissance, The Age of Discovery, innumerable medical and scientific advancements, but it was all brought to heel by The Inquisition. Incidentally, the current pope, our good friend cardinal Ratzinger headed that fine office prior to becoming pope. The Catholic Church has been scaring the hell out of me lately, they trying to bring back they're political sway, on a local level. I too would like to know who's pulling the strings. But religion is what they are going to use to drive the wedge, or would religion be the wedge? Either way, someone doesn't want us to be friends.

DaveMoral - 9-22-2006 at 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by upyerbum
I've always pictured Tony Blair and Bush as Pinky and the Brain.
You know there was a time when Christians, Muslims, and Jews co-existed (much like humans and fish) peacefully, and shared their knowledge. It spawned The Renaissance, The Age of Discovery, innumerable medical and scientific advancements, but it was all brought to heel by The Inquisition. Incidentally, the current pope, our good friend cardinal Ratzinger headed that fine office prior to becoming pope. The Catholic Church has been scaring the hell out of me lately, they trying to bring back they're political sway, on a local level. I too would like to know who's pulling the strings. But religion is what they are going to use to drive the wedge, or would religion be the wedge? Either way, someone doesn't want us to be friends.

Precisely.

moforn - 9-22-2006 at 11:41 PM

There's some good discussion going on right here, I've been trying to think of a way to articulate my own thoughts on the matter but at the moment I'm way too tired/drunk to compose any thing that would actually contribute to the discourse.
What I will say though is that it's really nice for once to see an internet forum thread move from name calling and generalizations towards actual dialogue, respect and conciliation rather than vice versa... let this thread be a beacon of hope to humanity

Voodoobillyman - 9-23-2006 at 11:13 AM

Quote:

I'll be honest with you and straight say that I DO see the "end times" scenario beginning to come to the fore. I see it this whole thing as a plot manipulated by forces unseen... Christians would call it the Anti-Christ and Satan, Muslims call it the Dajjal and Shaytan. It seems like the Clone Wars in Star Wars... the dark side is running the show on both sides. There're good people on both sides as well... just fighting for what they believe is right and not realizing they're being manipulated. As fucked up as blowing up buses with children, and pizza parlors is... I honestly can't fault the Palestinians for their anger and hatred and resentment. Hell, for their nihilism. This generations grandparents remember when they were driven from their homes for some "chosen people" ideal... can you imagine that? If your future had been pillaged before you were even born by foreigners you'd be pretty pissed... especially if you didn't see much hope around you. Bin Laden is this war's Dooku, and I can't even begin to fathom who the Sidious is...

I like this metaphor. I do tend to get caught up with emotion sometimes, like us all and tend to let things slip that I don't necessarily whole heartedly believe............just half heartedly. We all face some very complex and scary times,and the powers that be want to keep it that way for sure. I do still have hope, humanity is a powerfull thing when it wants to be. I have a young daughter and fear most for her prospects in all of this. If she decides the Quran makes the most sense to her, I would support her, but I would also not allow her to get caught up in the hate being preached by those using that book as a backbone for their cause. Same with the Bible and Christians. I harbor alot of anger over things done to US citizens for the Governments policies. Radical Muslims do not belong in modern society at all. The Palestinians did get shafted but there has to be a better way of handling it, there just has to be. Our Government needs to clean out some old cobwebs, get some fresh blood and a fresh approach to all of this. Israel has certain rights as well that need to be respected, that is where the hard part lies. This whole scenario has grown into something that seems as though it must be played out to the end, but I refuse to accept that there is not a way to reconcile somehow and find a solution best for all. Bin Laden however HAS to face justice no matter how it plays out. We WILL catch him eventually, I truly and honestly believe this. As far as my end times rantings and such, that's just my own personal fears talking, dosent mean I don't believe it, just means I need to articulate it differently. I am thoroughly enjoying this thread.

DaveMoral - 9-23-2006 at 05:21 PM

I'm glad we've come out of the dismal name calling and generalizations.

I just don't trust much of anyone these days. Least of all rich old men grasping onto power and wealth. And I'm skeptical about false piety couched with mass murder.

There's a thing lacking the Muslim world called futuwwah, it means "way of the young man" but is generally understood as chivalry... more precisely spiritual chivalry. I think similar concepts in other cultures in the world are severely lacking in this day and age. In some sense, I feel that this is the root cause of our problems. We don't look at each other and see ourselves there... and we don't see another's faults and see our own glaring right back at us more intensely. Point a finger and there are three more pointing right back at you.

upyerbum - 9-24-2006 at 10:10 AM

Can the Thorp board save the world? Onward, Thorp Warriors.

DaveMoral - 9-24-2006 at 11:56 PM

If only... we'd single-handedly save the world AND hardcore at the same time. Think about it.

JawnDiablo - 9-25-2006 at 05:49 AM

a tried to save both.
neither really wanted to be saved

beaner - 9-25-2006 at 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RomanticViolence

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBadVibes
all religion makes me wanna puke
if its your thing, more power to ya
but ya might as well believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus too

I feel the same way about this.
That is all.

here here.