NJ/PA Terror Plot

Siczine.com - 5-8-2007 at 11:59 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070509/ap_on_re_us/fort_dix_plo...

Definitely a close call for NJ/PA residents.

Discipline - 5-9-2007 at 12:30 AM

Hope they get the worst the justice system can give them.

Siczine.com - 5-9-2007 at 01:38 AM

Agreed.

JawnDiablo - 5-9-2007 at 05:26 AM

string em up
you can use my tree

Voodoobillyman - 5-9-2007 at 07:11 AM

buncha yahoos, they won't see the light of day again, they will rot in prison cells. Theres your martyrdom fuckheads

DaveMoral - 5-9-2007 at 06:14 PM

Sigh.

Discipline - 5-9-2007 at 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
Sigh.

Is that because you're worried that all muslims will be viewed the same in the media, or cause you think they're innocent?

DaveMoral - 5-9-2007 at 06:26 PM

Eh, I'm just sick of it all. I don't know if these dudes are innocent or guilty. I'm generally inclined to think there's alot of smoke and mirrors involved with shit that never pans out, and it sure as hell helps the Bush administration to say "oh look, we stopped a plot" when their approval raitings are in the gutter. Not to mention elements of this story strike me as just farcical. For instance, they say it all came about when a store clerk tipped 'em off about this dvd these guys wanted copied... now, if you've got the ability to make the fuckin' dvd don't you think you'd have the ability to make copies of it? And why Oh why would these dudes actually take the shit to a business to have a fucking terrorist video copied for them?

Quite frankly, if they were for real, I don't think they could have ever gotten the shit off the ground because let's face it... they weren't smart enough to keep everything in-house, how in the hell could they have ever gotten weapons and gone through with it?

Indeed, it raises some concerns about how Muslims will be percieved, how my friends and family will be percieved and treated after this shit. No worries really in Philadelphia, we are a significant portion of the Philly population, but elsewhere in the area could be problematic. And I tire of the reactionary comments like "string 'em up" and shit like that because if an American intelligence agent was nabbed in Iran on suspicion of attempting to foment a coup or something and they were going to string him up there'd be bitching and moaning by the same such people that want to "string up" Muslims who do some stupid shit here.

Discipline - 5-9-2007 at 06:37 PM

Point taken.

upyerbum - 5-9-2007 at 07:41 PM

I don't want to start another "discussion" but I tend to agree with Dave on these so-called stings. They are really scraping the bottom of the barrell. There's either no-one to catch or they can't catch them, take your pick. The cops do the same thing with dope-dealers, they nail a couple, throw the public a bone and business goes on as usual. Racism and religion are used to divide us, not unite us.

If they are guilty however...

Siczine.com - 5-9-2007 at 09:19 PM

What do you expect, thats why I can't stand religious institutions of any sort. Either convert to their belief system or we'll look down upon you and call you a heathen.

MyOwnWay - 5-10-2007 at 08:22 AM

I know my political views arent very popular on this board. But I call bullshit on this one. This has political desperation all over it. Trying to refocus america on how these terrorists can hit here at home. Americas numbers are growing to support bringing the troops home. Bush's plan failed just like he failed us. His administration is grabbing at straws. And trying desperately to hold on to the fear and rage that 911 spawned here in America. Its not working anymore.

Davemoral... I respect your post. Well said.

Siczine.com - 5-10-2007 at 02:59 PM

See I would agree with both of you however, this hasn't been big news in anywhere but NJ/PA and even most people in the area I've talked to haven't heard about it. If it really was just to make people think "Hey, look we actually got something!" It would be getting a lot more conversation than it is.

newbreedbrian - 5-10-2007 at 03:15 PM

it was big news in the paper here (Nova Scotia), I would imagine it was same across the rest of the country/continent. sounds a bit overblown to me as well based on what i've read about it

DaveMoral - 5-10-2007 at 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Siczine.com
See I would agree with both of you however, this hasn't been big news in anywhere but NJ/PA and even most people in the area I've talked to haven't heard about it. If it really was just to make people think "Hey, look we actually got something!" It would be getting a lot more conversation than it is.

Well, the thing is... given the track record of the administration, the FBI bringing bogus cases that were thrown out of court and Gonzales' evasive methods in Senate hearings there's a good deal of skepticism here. Not to mention, the mole they planted amongst these dudes was ultimately looked at by these guys, apparently, as the dude that could actually get things off the ground for them. It could turn out that the mole was an informant that instigated what would have otherwise been a lot smoke being blown by these guys. If that's the case it's entrapment.

Siczine.com - 5-10-2007 at 05:57 PM

You make many good points and I'm sure you're much more informed than I am on issues of this nature. And trust me I agree that the government is extremely corrupt and would easily do something like this. But I just think if the gov't was trying to pull one over they would try to do something a little bigger than this because god knows they are more than capable (Yeah, I know that's hard to believe they are capable of anything but corruption and scandals are their strength)

DaveMoral - 5-10-2007 at 06:01 PM

Well, I can see where you're coming from on that one... but, the bigger something gets the harder it is going to be to cover over the shit too. At any rate, one thing this case does supremely effectively is casts the eye of suspicion upon EVERY Muslim that anyone knows. These guys were loved by the people that knew them. "Extremely nice guys" I've heard numerous times. Completely unsuspcious dudes. So a regular guy Muslim dude like myself can suddenly seem like a timebomb just waiting to go off just by virtue of being Muslim. I'm a corn-fed white boy from northern Indiana that converted to Islam... these guys were mostly Yugoslav ex-pats if I recall correctly. They're "white" too. See what I'm getting at?

Siczine.com - 5-10-2007 at 06:11 PM

Yes I can see where you're coming from. And it's because people don't understand it, they fear what they don't know. As you've stated Philadelphia has a huge Muslim population so while it won't present a big problem here it will in the rural areas.

MyOwnWay - 5-10-2007 at 06:50 PM

Called bullshit, I stand by it. I say entrapment. I got this earlier today from a news source... As a side note the man pressuring him, was the FBI agent. (link provided upon request if my integrity is in question)

Also, one of the men, Tatar, called a Philadelphia police officer in November, saying that he had been approached by someone who was pressuring him to obtain a map of Fort Dix, and that he feared the incident was terrorist-related, according to court documents.

"It could be a defense, that he felt he was being pressured to do things and actually called law enforcement to report it," Sohail Mohammed, a lawyer and Muslim community leader in New Jersey who is not involved in the case.

DaveMoral - 5-10-2007 at 08:19 PM

Got a link for that? Needless to say, I feel particularly interested in this story.

I heard this too, because apparently the informant went by the name "Mahmood" and that was who these guys thought could make it happen.

MyOwnWay - 5-10-2007 at 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
Got a link for that? Needless to say, I feel particularly interested in this story.

I heard this too, because apparently the informant went by the name "Mahmood" and that was who these guys thought could make it happen.

http://my.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20070510/464298c0_3...

Siczine.com - 5-10-2007 at 10:27 PM

That's an interesting article to say the least.

DaveMoral - 5-10-2007 at 10:59 PM

If I end up figuring this may very well be a case of entrapment expect me to be saying shit like "free the Fort Dix six" or something.

I'm taking a wait and see approach to this though.

Voodoobillyman - 5-11-2007 at 08:17 AM

I'm not trying to start anything here, but how organized was the dude at VA Tech or the two at Colombine? It dosen't take much organization to do damage if you get the jump on things. My point of view as someone who has been charged with protecting this country is this, take every threat no matter how minimal seeming seriously. I would'nt put it past the Gov to pull something like this on purpose to help boost ratings, but if these guys displayed even an intent to commit that kind of crime, they should be handled swiftly and with no mercy, no matter how unorganized they were.

DaveMoral - 5-11-2007 at 08:36 AM

Still, just talking about something isn't a criminal act until you take steps to make it happen. So the question now is this... did the informant push them to make it happen where as they may not have gone as far as they did(attempt to purchase weapons whose real cost they didn't even know) if he hadn't been encouraging them to do so. One of the suspects called the police talking about someone urging him to get a map of Fort Dix.

Like I said, I'm reserving my judgement BUT the rule of thumb is "innocent until proven guilty" and no matter how guilty reports might be making these guys appear right now... the burden of proof is on the government and we should be skeptical of their claims until they can actually prove these guys guilty. I'll be keeping track of this one as best I can.

Voodoobillyman - 5-11-2007 at 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
Still, just talking about something isn't a criminal act until you take steps to make it happen. So the question now is this... did the informant push them to make it happen where as they may not have gone as far as they did(attempt to purchase weapons whose real cost they didn't even know) if he hadn't been encouraging them to do so. One of the suspects called the police talking about someone urging him to get a map of Fort Dix.

Like I said, I'm reserving my judgement BUT the rule of thumb is "innocent until proven guilty" and no matter how guilty reports might be making these guys appear right now... the burden of proof is on the government and we should be skeptical of their claims until they can actually prove these guys guilty. I'll be keeping track of this one as best I can.

This point is where you and I differ on opinion. If the informant gave them a valid direction to move in towards bringing their plans to fruition, they are just as guilty as they would be if they had done it on their own. I don't buy the whole "entrapment" plea as they went along, fuck entrapment, you have to be doing something wrong to be entrapped. Inability and ignorance are no kind of defense in my humble opinion. If the intent is their without the means, you are guilty. Where does the line get drawn, should the cops stand back and wait for someone to actually walk on to base and begin shooting before they intervene so they have an airtight case in the publics view, or should they head it off at the very earliest stages possible? There are no easy answers anymore for this kind of issue.

MyOwnWay - 5-11-2007 at 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
I'm not trying to start anything here

Not at all. I cant speak for anyone else, but I enjoy a level headed debate.

I've read your other posts regarding this and I am inclined to agree with you. At what point is "interviening too soon" especially when the plan is to harm someone. And I do agree with your point of them although being unorganized, the concept and will is seemingly still there.

However... I say things all the time, and some of the can be constued in very bad ways. I am in nowway gonna incriminate myself on a public board but people talk. When you are angry, frustrated and so on... You talk. "I want to beat the shit outta that dude" or "I'd kill that person with my bare hands" and other such things. Its human nature. But none of this was materializing until the informant pushed things into thier face. Maybe they had the intent, maybe they did not. My point in this is that we are judging them on these acts, when they were invited into this. They had made no moves, zero, prior to the informant coming in contact with them. That is what I see as not fair. And entrapment in this case, to me, is a justifiable call.

Now had they acted on this and began the plotting and so on by themselves, I'd agree with putting them away. But that didnt happen. The pizza guy talked for months about getting a map and never followed thru with it. I understand the severity of it. But dont forget we all talk shit.

Voodoobillyman - 5-11-2007 at 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MyOwnWay

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
I'm not trying to start anything here

I see your point, but what if it had been someone else who pushed them in the right direction rather than the informant and no one was the wiser until they opened fire on a bunch of unarmed, unaware soldiers on that base? They had the intent and thats enough for me. Heres where your theory of everyone talks smack dosen't sit the same way in my opinion. If you get cut off in traffic and you say I would kill that fucker or whatever it may be, then someone comes to you and says, heres where they live, heres their schedule, and heres the weapon to do it with, would you go through with it? These guys were going to go through with it. Thats the big difference in my eyes. It dosen't matter to me how they were aided or set up or whatever, they fully intended to do it when the plan began to seemingly take a solid form.

upyerbum - 5-11-2007 at 11:11 AM

I constantly talk about seccesion and overthrowing the government, so where does that leave me? I find it worrisome, we had a similiar situation in Toronto, but those guys were a little more serious, however the authorities totally enabled them. Either way, they'll never take me alive.

Voodoobillyman - 5-11-2007 at 11:13 AM

let us not forget that 3 of these guys were in this country illegaly which brings the other "hot topic" to light, immigration reform. they should not have been here to plan this in the first place.

MyOwnWay - 5-11-2007 at 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman

If you get cut off in traffic and you say I would kill that fucker or whatever it may be, then someone comes to you and says, heres where they live, heres their schedule, and heres the weapon to do it with, would you go through with it?

But you and I are rational thinkers. You and I wouldnt do it like that. But someone less rational has no means or intentions of following thru with it, but if handed the golden key so to speak, someone may take it a bit more seriousley.

Tell you what I would do. If someone hurt a family member or close friend in an unforgivable way, and I stewed over this and would love to act on it but cant... Then someone approaches me with the weapon, their schedule, and where they live (taken from your example), then I would be more inclined. These guys have an anger (assuming) towards things as it conflicts with their beliefs. Why are they here? Cant answer that, but they are and it doesnt make them guilty.

I am not defending their intentions. I am saying that the case inpoint is entrapment. Its not a matter of "what if's". I do believe they were set up and targeted and made an example out of. Maybe that sounds like a good idea but until they were approached, they were still innocent people talking shit.

Voodoobillyman - 5-11-2007 at 11:38 AM

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Originally posted by MyOwnWay

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we agree to disagree on this then, we can talk until blue in the face but no ones being convinced here. It's nice to discuss without heated tempers though.

Voodoobillyman - 5-11-2007 at 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by upyerbum
I constantly talk about seccesion and overthrowing the government, so where does that leave me? I find it worrisome, we had a similiar situation in Toronto, but those guys were a little more serious, however the authorities totally enabled them. Either way, they'll never take me alive.

you are more than within your rights to do so, but would you take it to the point of carrying a fully automatic weapon to a place you deem responsible for your woes and begin firing blindly at everyone in sight. These guys intended to do this and thats the big difference in my opinion. You can say they were instigated by the informant or whatever, that dosen't matter to me, they were willing to go through with it and thats the bottom line in my eyes.

MyOwnWay - 5-11-2007 at 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman

we agree to disagree on this then, we can talk until blue in the face but no ones being convinced here. It's nice to discuss without heated tempers though.

Kinda funny. After I posted that, I thought the exact same thing, that you just wrote.

Voodoobillyman - 5-11-2007 at 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MyOwnWay

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman

we agree to disagree on this then, we can talk until blue in the face but no ones being convinced here. It's nice to discuss without heated tempers though.

Kinda funny. After I posted that, I thought the exact same thing, that you just wrote.

great minds (in disagreeance or not) think alike

MyOwnWay - 5-11-2007 at 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman

Quote:

Originally posted by MyOwnWay

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman

we agree to disagree on this then, we can talk until blue in the face but no ones being convinced here. It's nice to discuss without heated tempers though.

Kinda funny. After I posted that, I thought the exact same thing, that you just wrote.

great minds (in disagreeance or not) think alike

Exactly.

*smiles and hands a beer to Voodoo*

Siczine.com - 5-11-2007 at 11:45 AM

Yeah topics of religion and politics can get really heated, fast. It's always nice to see rationality prevail.

Voodoobillyman - 5-11-2007 at 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Siczine.com
Yeah topics of religion and politics can get really heated, fast. It's always nice to see rationality prevail.

Dosen't the saying go "Never dicuss politics, money or religion at a party" Or something like that, it's guaranteed to get the blood boiling in most cases.

Voodoobillyman - 5-11-2007 at 11:48 AM

this case will be interesting to follow indeed, and it only got a speck of news coverage here which leads me to believe the White House didn't invest that much of their propoganda machines resources towards it.

Siczine.com - 5-11-2007 at 12:58 PM

And most of the people that are talking about it think the people involved are "arabs".

ENDERA.x - 5-11-2007 at 01:28 PM

"Abdullahu was familiar with Fort Dix because it was the first place he landed when arriving in the United States as a refugee from Kosovo

-Well thats one way to repay a country that took you in.

DaveMoral - 5-11-2007 at 01:39 PM

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Originally posted by Voodoobillyman

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Fortunately entrapment IS a legal defense, so that's not really an issue so much. It's like an undercover urging a dude to hire a prostitute, especially if the prostitute in question is also an undercover.

This case is distressing, I've talked about jihad, revolution and the sorts all over hte internet. Been involved in groups with documents to that effect, never EVER did anything illegal... never the less, all the things I did within the law of the land could put suspicion on me. I've been questioned by the Feds about that stuff as well. I've gone to shooting ranges with groups of Muslims, gone to paintball courses with groups of Muslims. Let's say I was a bit unhinged... or rather, extremely impressionable, and a dude comes along convinces me that we can make this shit happen and puts pressure on me to do something that previously I'd only spoken about and never taken steps to make it happen. Let's say that person is an FBI informant or undercover... in that case it would be the government and its agents putting pressure on me to specifically so they could put someone in jail for the crime they encouraged me to commit. That's entrapment. Regardless of all the what ifs, like what if someone that wasn't a Fed informant/agent came along and pushed the suspects in the right direction, its entrapment to push them into a criminal act in order to charge them with it. Otherwise they wouldn't have done it and never really put any effort into making their talk reality.

Like I said, I'm going to be watching this one... but I have a feeling its certainly not as clear as we are being made to believe. Entrapment is difficult to prove, especially in cases like this post-9/11, because they would basically have to prove that the entire plot was the idea of the informant rather than him saying the right things and putting the right pressure where and making the right resources seem available to get these guys to make steps towards putting their talk into action.

upyerbum - 5-11-2007 at 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman

Quote:

Originally posted by upyerbum
but would you take it to the point of carrying a fully automatic weapon to a place you deem responsible for your woes and begin firing blindly at everyone in sight.

I would never harm an innocent. But I'm not into terror. I'm into truth. I'll never understand why these guys don't hit military and infrastructure, it would give far more credibility to their cause. But politics aside, someone who attacks innocent people is a coward, period.

MyOwnWay - 5-11-2007 at 05:30 PM

Upyerbum. I'm glad you quoted Voodoo's comment. I couldnt possibley agree more with that statement.

Discipline - 5-11-2007 at 05:42 PM

Quote:

Two of them lived around the corner from me. How scary is that?

barc0debaby - 5-11-2007 at 06:22 PM

"One of the defendants, Tatar, worked at his father's pizzeria and made deliveries to the base, using the opportunity to scout out Fort Dix for an attack, authorities said."

Every military installation I've ordered a pizza at the delivery boy has to wait outside the gates.

JawnDiablo - 5-11-2007 at 07:55 PM

seriously.
i made a wrong turn coming out of a concert at the spectrum back when i was first driving and accidentally ended up at tha phila navy yard, back when it was still an active base. there was no way i was gettin in there. it was pretty well guarded at its checkpoint....

DaveMoral - 5-11-2007 at 10:38 PM

Yeah, realistically, how much access would the pizza delivery guy have for a military base and how many service men would they actually be able to get with that kind of access. "So, Tatar, what did you see?" "Well, I got a real good look at the checkpiont at the front gate... other than that I couldn't tell you much but what I saw within 100 yards of that"

Discipline - 5-12-2007 at 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
Yeah, realistically, how much access would the pizza delivery guy have for a military base and how many service men would they actually be able to get with that kind of access. "So, Tatar, what did you see?" "Well, I got a real good look at the checkpiont at the front gate... other than that I couldn't tell you much but what I saw within 100 yards of that"

This I believe 100%. While I believe some might try to attack a military base, I don;t think a pizza delivery man would have enough access to plan a suitable attack.

upyerbum - 5-12-2007 at 10:23 AM

When I was in the sevice we were training in England and they have barricades and armed guards for about 100 metres leading up to the entrance to the camp, me and this Irish guy were loaded drunk and we went running up to the gate yelling "No VC, No VC". We almost got shot.