The immigration debate

Discipline - 6-5-2007 at 03:54 PM

How do people around here feel about this ongoing issue. Let them stay, give them the boot, etc.?

CR83 - 6-5-2007 at 04:07 PM

boot. Why do "illegal" immigrants have the ability to take from this system? Apply for citizenship and get through legally.

The analogy Fred Thompson gave was, "put up a wall around the borders but put a door in it so we can decide who gets in."

I like that idea and I do not support mr. thompson.

Discipline - 6-5-2007 at 04:16 PM

I agree. I think that by letting 12 million illegal immigrants stay sends a bad message to those who came in legally. Those who came in legally had to wait in line, pay their money, and earn the right to come in. If the government lets the illegals stay, they're pissing all over those who followed the rules.

Siczine.com - 6-5-2007 at 05:00 PM

Fuck amnesty. If you're here illegally, you should get the boot.

tireironsaint - 6-5-2007 at 05:15 PM

The only thing illegal immigration does is allow a corrupt system to continue to exploit the poor and working class. Fuck people taking advantage of a flawed system that is supported by our hard earned tax dollars. And by that, I mean both the illegals as well as the corporations and other rich bastards who exploit the situation to their advantage.

Muttley - 6-5-2007 at 05:17 PM

BOOT.

From the interview I did with Siczine.com (thanks Jeff):

I don't think most Americans understand the severity of the mistakes that were made over the last almost 20 years that led to 9/11. The immigration issue makes that clear. Securing our borders is a low priority, and most Americans are fighting to keep illegal immigrants from being prosecuted and/or shipped out. Why? Because of political correctness and because our economy depends so much on these illegal immigrants. Isn't that sad? As long as we let this continue, our national security will suffer for it. And this is part of why our culture is falling apart, because we tolerate what is clearly illegal activity and our children don't learn right from wrong.

And by the way, this plot to blow up the fuel lines at JFK Airport here in NYC just proves my point perfectly. These were mostly South Americans, not the typical Middle Eastern people that are on our no-fly lists and are given extra scrutiny at security checkpoints.

Discipline - 6-5-2007 at 05:21 PM

You have no idea what political correctness is until you come to Canada, especially Toronto.

Six66Mike - 6-5-2007 at 06:50 PM

12 million Mexicans doing the jobs at really low wages that Americans don't want to do, yeah kick em out. Pick your own crops.

I don't these people should be kicked out when they shouldn't have been let in to begin with. The politics and policing of the border was shit, and now decades later you want to try to fix it & kick everyone out who got in because you were asleep at the wheel.

Deal with the ones you got, the ones who have been working & contributing for the past 10-20 years, and tighten up now for the future. Don't punish those who are active members of society just because you fucked up in the first place.

Siczine.com - 6-5-2007 at 09:40 PM

We didn't fuck up...the government did. And good luck trying to decide which ones actually contribute to society and those who don't (and the ones who don't work sure as hell don't pay taxes from day labor).

Six66Mike - 6-5-2007 at 10:24 PM

you/we as a collective country, ie politicians/laws. Not you yourself.

None of it will matter if the current government gets its way with the North American Union, to further extent NORTHCOM & NAFTA into something like the EU.

Muttley - 6-6-2007 at 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Six66Mike
I don't these people should be kicked out when they shouldn't have been let in to begin with. The politics and policing of the border was shit, and now decades later you want to try to fix it & kick everyone out who got in because you were asleep at the wheel.

So we shouldn't try to fix past mistakes? Because someone fucked up years ago we should let this continue to be a free for all?

By that logic if a criminal escapes from jail we should let him stay free. Why? Because someone was asleep at the wheel and let him out.

DaveMoral - 6-6-2007 at 05:24 PM

It's not fucking amnesty you retards. Dude's have to GO BACK to their country and apply for citizenship but get bumped up the list. Jesus Christ you'd think they were just handing out citizenship or something.

As for deciding who contributes to society and who doesn't... that's a bullshit dichtomy. Might as well round up the lowlifes that are "native" and ship them out too because how many homegrown Americans contribute FAR LESS to society than the working poor who do the fucking jobs you and your fellow citizens don't want to do?

Goddamn it I hate it when this shit comes up.

tireironsaint - 6-6-2007 at 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
It's not fucking amnesty you retards. Dude's have to GO BACK to their country and apply for citizenship but get bumped up the list. Jesus Christ you'd think they were just handing out citizenship or something.

As for deciding who contributes to society and who doesn't... that's a bullshit dichtomy. Might as well round up the lowlifes that are "native" and ship them out too because how many homegrown Americans contribute FAR LESS to society than the working poor who do the fucking jobs you and your fellow citizens don't want to do?

Goddamn it I hate it when this shit comes up.

And I fuckin' hate it when you pull this holier than thou bullshit and assume that everyone who doesn't agree with your P.C. opinion is a "retard".

God fuckin' forbid someone who ILLEGALLY entered this country have to go back home and make an attempt to do things legally. That's the point all the ultra-liberals seem to gloss right over, the law has already been broken by these people and yet the only punishment they're getting is a free ride back home. Nobody is calling for the ILLEGALS to be rounded up and put in camps or exterminated, yet anyone who actually has the balls to speak up and say that these people should be treated as lawbreakers and be shipped home is treated like they just espoused Nazi ideals.

While it is a slippery slope discussion when you try to start deciding who is or isn't "contributing to society", it's pretty easy to see who is here legally and who isn't, who pays their taxes and who doesn't, who takes advantage of the lax rules of welfare and so on and so forth. Face it, people ARE abusing the system and not contributing to it. People are bringing down the economy and well being of this country and if they're breaking the law to do it, they should be stopped. For the most part I don't hear a lot of talk about making a bunch of new laws, I just hear people asking that the laws we already have in place be upheld and utilized.

As for doing the jobs nobody wants to do, maybe it's different in your area, but I've seen my friends lose jobs that they worked hard to get to illegals. I've seen wages drop because illegals are taking lower wages to do the same job. I've seen people who have worked years and years to learn a trade get to the point where they have to start over because the job they've spent their entire life learning to do properly is being made worthless because companies are willing to pay half price to illegals to do a half assed job. On the flip side, do you really see this as a good long term solution to the problems faced by these people? Aren't they actually enabling the bosses to control and oppress them by being here illegally and working for criminally low wages? Sure, they might be making a lot more money than they could ever hope to make in their own country, but isn't that making their country a subsidiary or even a parasite of our own? Doesn't it destroy a culture to make it enticing for all the fathers to leave their families behind so they can try to support them somewhere else? Is there an easy solution to all of this? No, obviously not, but just like with addicts the attitude this government has towards illegals is an enabling attitude. Allowing this shit to go on only further entrenches the cycle and makes it harder to ever reach a real solution.

DaveMoral - 6-6-2007 at 07:41 PM

I pointed out, in case you fucking missed it, the current resolution or whatever they are calling it being used by Democrats is one that requires that people who are currently here illegally go back home and go through legal channels on an excellerated basis. In other words, because they've been here so long they get bumped up on the citizenship list but they still have to leave in order to apply. It's not like anyone is just going to get a free pass. Or are you conveniently ignoring that element of the bill??? It's either that or you're woefully ignorant of what's ACTUALLY being proposed.

So thanks for ignoring the entire opening paragraph of my post!

tireironsaint - 6-6-2007 at 07:50 PM

Since you clearly missed my saying this: "God fuckin' forbid someone who ILLEGALLY entered this country have to go back home and make an attempt to do things legally." I'll throw it up there again. And since you can't seem to talk about anything reasonably without insulting everyone else, learn to speak to people and not DOWN to them and maybe people would care about what you say.

Sorry if I didn't make it clear, I was talking more about how things actually happen NOW as opposed to how they may or may not happen down the road according to the bill. I have no problem with the proposal to make people go through the LEGAL process of immigrating, I just am aware enough to realize that this probably will never come to light since so many big money people have a nice system to keep the poor people under heel as things are now.

DaveMoral - 6-6-2007 at 09:01 PM

Then why not address what I was saying instead of latching onto the word "retards" and make it clear what you're speaking about. I was talking about the currently proposed bill and you're off on another tangent completely.

Now we can get into talking about the ills of corporate America and it's exploitation of third world peoples both at home and abroad. However, I don't think deporting 12 million people to a homeland that they left because the conditions there are 100x worse than conditions here and being paid what practically amounts to slave wages. Shit, in that regard it might actually be BETTER to grant amnesty to those already here AND enforce livable wages and fair employment practices rather than bussing a bunch of people back to Mexico or wherever else and putting them back into situations that are FAR worse than anything they'd have here.

"Native" born citizens are also scamming the welfare system far more than illegals and are contributing far less to society. The thing that really bothers me is the "us vs them" mentality that so many espouse. THAT's not getting us anywhere as a species, let alone a nation.

tireironsaint - 6-6-2007 at 10:09 PM

Go back and look at your original post and tell me there's anything clear there aside from you getting pissy at pretty much everyone who posted anything else in this thread. Had I known you were specifically addressing a specific point within the context of this VERY FUCKING LARGE topic we're all discussing, it might have been likely that I would have addressed that. As it was, I addressed part of what you said and clarified my position on the entire issue as well. Don't blame me for not reading your mind.

Obviously you and can agree that corporate interests and those wealthy few are really at fault in perpetuating this cycle, but your statement about how bad it would be to deport all these people amounts to nothing but welfare on a national scale. In other words, you propose that because these people have trouble getting good working conditions in THEIR OWN AUTONOMOUS NATION that we should subsidize their lives. At least, that's how I'm understanding your statement there. If I am understanding that correctly then that is precisely what I am against. We are the richest nation in the world and yet we don't even take care of our own people. Somehow through bullshit loopholes, we are being exploited into taking care of people whose very presence here is against the law, that's fucked up. That's not an "us against them" mentality, that's not enjoying people getting ahead by stepping on my back. I don't enjoy getting screwed so other people can better their lives. I'm happy to help out people in need, but my priorities don't start with people who are more than happy to fuck things up and outright steal from people who are trying to get by legally.

As far as legal citizens scamming more from the welfare system than illegals, I'd like to see some reference to back that up. I'm well aware that it happens, we all see American scumbags ripping off the system all the time and I'm no less disgusted by U.S. citizens doing it than I am by illegals, but the fact of the matter is, that is an entirely different topic.

Six66Mike - 6-6-2007 at 10:24 PM

I haven't read the above comments but here's my reply to Muttley:

Yes, let them stay. Escaped convicts are chased by authorities and sent back to prison when caught. When these illegals from Mexico are blatantly working on farms in Southern California for 15 years as illegals & no attempts to deport them is made, they've earned the right to stay.

Nobody bothered to go after them because in the 80's and 90's nobody cared. Politicians and business thought it was great, underpaid workers who will do just about anything. They provide a service in the economy, boost profit margins & productivity on low wages. Its 3rd world workers in your own back yard, no overseas out sourcing required.

So again, let them stay. You can crack down now and get tough on illegal migrants but the boat has sailed on those here for decades, with kids born & raised in the US. These kids are US citizens, born on US soil so their parents should be allowed to stay.

But honestly, with this new "Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America" bullshit Bush is trying to enact on his own will make North America like to European Union and none of this immigration debate will matter. They want to build a transport superhighway from Mexico to Canada to transport Mexican made goods, or Chinese imports going through Mexico instead of California. The borders will be wide open.

Besides, Mexicans aren't terrorists yet they are the majority of illegals currently in the country. This has nothing to do with terrorism as a lot of politicans and media are hyping it up to be. 9/11 terrorists got into the US with their real names & passports, clearing US customs at the airport & living for years without a problem. None of this can be done in the name of terror because terrorists were granted legal entry into the front door, not sneaking in the wide open back door & given jobs.

Siczine.com - 6-6-2007 at 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
excellerated

You mean accelerated.

And way to get your panties in a bunch and resort to insults well before anyone else. From the majority of the posts I've read of yours, you proudly claim how ignorant and stupid everyone else is, ever think to look in the mirror?

Get off your fucking high horse.

clevohardcore - 6-7-2007 at 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Six66Mike
12 million Mexicans doing the jobs at really low wages that Americans don't want to do, yeah kick em out. Pick your own crops.

I don't these people should be kicked out when they shouldn't have been let in to begin with. The politics and policing of the border was shit, and now decades later you want to try to fix it & kick everyone out who got in because you were asleep at the wheel.

Deal with the ones you got, the ones who have been working & contributing for the past 10-20 years, and tighten up now for the future. Don't punish those who are active members of society just because you fucked up in the first place.

^^^^^^^ I hate that excuse. People here will pick those crops man. Thats ignorant bullshit from the company heads that want to pay the next to nothing wages. They want maximum profit for no cost. Many people around here would jump at those jobs. Don't fool yourself bro.

clevohardcore - 6-7-2007 at 12:16 AM

And were is Rodney King when you need him? O wait, he can go to hell too.

Six66Mike - 6-7-2007 at 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by clevohardcore

Quote:

Americans won't do the jobs at the wages they love to pay. I don't even think its legal for Americans to get paid that little.

Canadian farms bring up Mexicans & Jamaicans in the summer to harvest all sorts of crops because there is a lack of workers willing to do the hard work in the region. And this is at legal wages on par with fast food employees and shit like that.

Discipline - 6-7-2007 at 01:36 AM

Quote:

Here is my concern with this. People who immigrate legally often have to wait years before they are allowed to move here, and have to go through a lot of bullshit. If these illegals are sent back to their home countries to apply, bumping them up the list is rewarding them for breaking the law. I've said it before, I have no problem with LEGAL immigration, but I take issue with ILLEGAL immigrants. People seem to think they have the right to illegally enter the US and Canada simply because life is better here, and there is more opportunity to succeed. We are not one happy world. We have borders and laws for a reason, and should enforce them. I'm completely against sending illegals home to apply for citizenship, as they've shown a complete disregard for several laws. I'm in favour of shipping them home and banning them from ever returning. Contrary to what many of them have stated in the news, they DON"T have the right to earn a living here and send money home to their families, for the simple reason that they don't have the right to be here in the first place.

(Look, no name calling!!

)

defstarsteve - 6-7-2007 at 01:50 AM

lots of random thoughts

americans want it both ways....
good pay but low prices on what you buy....

can a head of lettuce really be a 1.00 or 2.00, how can anyone make a profit on that?
the farmer, the farm hands, the trucking compny the grocery distributor, the grocery store, all need to get a cut of that money, who is going to pay 5.00 a head of lettuce so all farm workers can get benefits?

who really wants to work for minimum wage and who can afford it?

as a business owner, in an industry where illegal workers in texas and cali make up a large portion of the work force, I will say this...

I wish there were a few around here...illegal or not (there are none that I can find, I have checked)

not so I can pay them less then I would pay anyone else... I am actually one of the highest paying employers of low skilled workers in the sw PA right now

but having lived and worked in texas for 8 years before moving to PA,
I must say that they work harder, faster and more efficently then thier american counter parts...
even with language barriers

give me illegals over white trash anyday
why, they need the job, and they know what will happen if they lose it,

all of the illegals I knew in texas, sent home 75-90% of their earnings to support thier families back home, since there are no jobs there for them to support themselves on...

rather then buy big screen tv's or nights drinking down at the bar
the same can not be said for the lazy bastards available around here

the white trash will go get back on the welfare tit if they get laid off...
you can't do that in most staes wihtout proper papers so the illegals have no option there,
it's california's fault they fucked up their welfare system and hand you check as soon as you cross the border, but my taxes don't come close to paying for california's problems

I can't even get a PA drivers licsence without 5 forms of proper i.d., so do you think they are going to just start handing out checks here, if so where does the line start

since moving to pa I have had 1 employee (Chris) last over 2 years....or over 6 months mind you
and he still shows up late 90% of the time....
everyone else quit or got fired for being lazy, or just plain dumb
I have had almost 20 in that time frame, one of them being my own brother and yes I fired him too

and I pay almost double minimum wage....
Chris brings home more a week then his mom who has been a nurse here for like 9 years...
how is that even right? fuck if I know

the problem is much larger then the illegals but having a scapegoat (bin ladin/hussein) is the american way....
this is a nation of corporations and of religious freaks with more dollars then sense.
and we all need 60" plasma tv's to watch the big game this weekend after church

if you think that there are out of work auto plant workers who were making at least $20.00 an hour thanks to the union who want to go pick strawberries in a field with no insurance, no 401k, no vacation, and get paid minimum wage, then you really gotta wake up a take a look around at what this nation really is, a bunch of fat, lazy, selfish bastards...
if we can find someone to do our work for us for next to nothing, why do it ourselves...
we are above that.... we all nedd to be sitting in offices and sipping starbucks while juan does the yardwork and we get paid...

do I think they should be forced to go home....
fuck no becasue I want fresh food next week when I go shopping...
sorry I wirk to hard to pick my own food, and I sure as fuck don't make enough to pay an american to do it.

they should be forced to pay a fine, and register under a guest worker program while following channels to become citizens and the people who employeed them illegally also pay a fine... but no so much you hurt industry
those funds can go straight back into the welfare system, unless some senator somewhere needs a new purse or a trip to europe or something important

this nation is fucked, for the simple fact that we the people are not in control and never will be again....
so who really cares if the guy next to you was born o nthe other side of a silly imaginary line or not....
he needs the same food, the same air and the same love that everyone else does...

but he doesn't speak the language so fuck him send him home
it must be his fault that we are supposed to be the smartest country on the planet yet most europeans speak at least 3 if not more languages, while we can't even master our own...hell canadians speak more languages then we do
(and yes I suck at english give me german anyday)

do I have a point no
fuck you I gotta go work since I got no illegals or white trash fucks to work for me

and if they do open the borders like the EU, well hell fuck yeah
I am moving to canada, weed and free health care, and apparently all the screen printers there suck since I get so many orders down here, so money everwhere

tireironsaint - 6-7-2007 at 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Six66Mike

Quote:

Originally posted by clevohardcore

Quote:

That's the point though, NOBODY should be doing those jobs for that pay. It's illegal to pay that little for a reason. By hiring illegals to do those jobs and refusing to pay a decent wage to ANYONE for doing that job, they create that self-fulfilling prophecy that says that Americans won't do those jobs. We CAN'T do those jobs for that amount of money, therefore those jobs are being stolen from legal workers. Are they desirable jobs? No, but if they paid legal wages I can guarantee you that legal workers would be signing up for them.

Siczine.com - 6-7-2007 at 07:03 AM

It's funny that in this thread that most posts seem to assume (or at least state) that all mexicans/illegals do is work on farms. Last time I checked they are huge in the construction field (and obviously landscaping). They are the highest paying jobs for a man without a college degree. And I can tell you from first hand experience, while most illegals are heralded as being the hardest workers, and in some cases that might be true, but that doesn't make them the smartest or most effecient workers. I mean when you have to spend an extra 5 minutes to explain something that takes 2 seconds to an American. Shit I've seen roofing companies hire Mexicans and the LEGALS had to hold up signs and shit to communicate.

I know for a fact that there are AMERICANS that would die to have many of these constuction jobs, and I've seen many friends fired because of cheaper illegal labor in the construction field, whether it be masonry work, roofing, carpentry, flooring, sheetrock, etc,.

And Tire hit the nail on the head: "By hiring illegals to do those jobs and refusing to pay a decent wage to ANYONE for doing that job, they create that self-fulfilling prophecy that says that Americans won't do those jobs."

DaveMoral - 6-7-2007 at 08:05 AM

The irony is... the so-called "illegals" prove day-in day-out that the wages they are paid ARE livable. They just don't have the extravagant tastes that Americans do. Interesting.

This is a heated debate and I tire of the right wing attitudes thrown about when this shit pops off. How can you fault anyone for doing exactly what has caused the human species to propogate and grow? How can you fault people for doing precisely what is natural, migrate where there are greater resources? Shit, can you blame people? Do you have any idea what kind of hoops you have to jump through in order to migrate legally? Shit... people are starving and dying, and yet they are kept queued up for YEARS and allowed to starve and die. Of course people are going to cross borders, especially when historically those borders were as permeable as it gets.

They weren't treated as more concrete until the Depression anyways, and that was just convenient white scapegoating onto non-white people. It was no different than what those same California whites ended up doing to the Okies when they started migrating out of the dust bowl! The current favorite scapegoat is the Mexican illegal immigrant(no one, of course, is up in arms about illegal Irish or German immigrants), wait until the stock market crashes again... see how your fellow Americans are treated by the haves.

thedog - 6-7-2007 at 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
The current favorite scapegoat is the Mexican illegal immigrant(no one, of course, is up in arms about illegal Irish or German immigrants)

According to a Pew Hispanic Center report, Mexicans make up about 57 percent of the illegal immigrants with another 24 percent coming from Central American and South American countries, approximately 9 percent from Asia, 6 percent from Europe and Canada, with the remaining 4 percent from the rest of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_Unit...

clevohardcore - 6-7-2007 at 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Six66Mike

Quote:

Originally posted by clevohardcore

Quote:

^^^^^^^^^ that is my point. those jobs could pay better and many many Americans would jump at them. The fact that our system allows companies to illegally hire them is outrageous. the companies do not want to take from their profits so they claim a bullshit excuse that Americans would not want to work the jobs. Its bullshit lies. I know plenty of Americans who work shitty jobs for low wages and there lives are in serious danger for doing so.

clevohardcore - 6-7-2007 at 12:25 PM

Kraft can pay many workers 12 an hour with healthcare to pick and manufactuer tomatoes(ketchup) and pickles(relish) over the course of the year. Heinz does not want ot pay that so they claim no American wants to do this job for $7 an hour. well thats true, but pay a little better and plenty of people would do it.

Of course the next arguement is hirer prices at the supermarket. Well it doesn't have to be, but it would if the company heads had to hire Americans. Problem is steeper prices mean less people to buy Relish and Ketchup. And who wants to mess with the stock market right now? N one so the easy fix is bring Mexicans in the country during growing seasons and have debates on if its wrong or not. All the while make record profits and take over smaller companies that manufacturer the same product. Gain more control and have more power. NOw you have no choice and what happens next? Well eventually the cheap wages seem even more desireable now because you really need an extra job just to buy food to put on the table for your family. Sound familiar? I have 1 son and my wife and I are broke after we buy groceries. Many times I am charging it to get what we need.

Siczine.com - 6-7-2007 at 01:12 PM

And if they increased the wages for Americans to do the jobs, that does not mean you have to raise the prices at the market like Steve said. All you would be doing is cutting into the extravagantly high living standards of the top tier.

clevohardcore - 6-7-2007 at 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Siczine.com
And if they increased the wages for Americans to do the jobs, that does not mean you have to raise the prices at the market like Steve said. All you would be doing is cutting into the extravagantly high living standards of the top tier.

^^^^^^^^^^ DUDE! that is exactly what I am saying. They are making highway robbery because of investors and owners wanting maximum profit no matter what the costs.

clevohardcore - 6-7-2007 at 02:35 PM

It needs to end. No matter how you view this topis the bottom line it we are discussing and making it a issue to make it seem to have an impossible solution. they create the issue and expect us to sit by and continue to allow it to happen. We are idle and they are moving forward with maximum dollar.

clevohardcore - 6-7-2007 at 02:39 PM

The point is we are no different than the ones trying to cross the border. the only diffenrece is it may be easier for us to social security when we get older. Even that is said to be non-existent after the baby boomers.

defstarsteve - 6-7-2007 at 03:21 PM

good luck getting ceo's and boards of directors to take any kind of paycut, share holders will not hear of a lower profit margin...

yeah fuck it let's bomb wall street, and priviize ownership of businesses again and then you might see some change

Siczine.com - 6-7-2007 at 04:02 PM

I don't think anyone here is trying to pull a Fight Club but things need to change.

Why should America's middle class and below suffer because we have to undertake the burden of fixing other countries problems. Of the top industralized nations we have one of the highest poverty rates. And unlike many of the industralized European countries, we do not have universal health care or free higher education.

If you look up the stats, America isn't number one in any category (health care, survival of newborns, literacy, etc,.) except for having the most nuclear weapons. We need to fix ourselves well before fixing the problems of other countries. Mexico and the other South American countries need to take accountability for the situations they've created, not us.

Discipline - 6-7-2007 at 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
The irony is... the so-called "illegals" prove day-in day-out that the wages they are paid ARE livable. They just don't have the extravagant tastes that Americans do. Interesting.

This is a heated debate and I tire of the right wing attitudes thrown about when this shit pops off. How can you fault anyone for doing exactly what has caused the human species to propogate and grow? How can you fault people for doing precisely what is natural, migrate where there are greater resources? Shit, can you blame people? Do you have any idea what kind of hoops you have to jump through in order to migrate legally? Shit... people are starving and dying, and yet they are kept queued up for YEARS and allowed to starve and die. Of course people are going to cross borders, especially when historically those borders were as permeable as it gets.

They weren't treated as more concrete until the Depression anyways, and that was just convenient white scapegoating onto non-white people. It was no different than what those same California whites ended up doing to the Okies when they started migrating out of the dust bowl! The current favorite scapegoat is the Mexican illegal immigrant(no one, of course, is up in arms about illegal Irish or German immigrants), wait until the stock market crashes again... see how your fellow Americans are treated by the haves.

If you don't mind Dave, I would like to hear your response specifically to my post near the bottom of the second page.

Muttley - 6-7-2007 at 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tireironsaint
That's the point though, NOBODY should be doing those jobs for that pay. It's illegal to pay that little for a reason. By hiring illegals to do those jobs and refusing to pay a decent wage to ANYONE for doing that job, they create that self-fulfilling prophecy that says that Americans won't do those jobs. We CAN'T do those jobs for that amount of money, therefore those jobs are being stolen from legal workers. Are they desirable jobs? No, but if they paid legal wages I can guarantee you that legal workers would be signing up for them.

Emphasis added by me because it's on fucking point.

And by the way, this mentality is why people continue to beg for change on streetcorners in big cities. The average person on a street corner begging for change makes more money than a starting wage at a retail job.

Quote:

Exactly. And this whole thing about extravagance goes for many industries. Why do you think the music industry is tanking? Less money to be made but the top guys refuse to take paycuts. It's gonna be armageddon in the next five years.

random - 6-7-2007 at 11:37 PM

Couple of quick points since I got bored with some of the arguments and skimmed over some comments...

1) Regarding farmworkers. Believe it or not, you don't have to pay farmworkers or domestic servants the federal minimum wage. They're excluded from most labor law, including the Fair Labor Standards Act. Farmworkers are typically paid piece-rate at rates that are expected to be below minimum wage. It's legal. An there really aren't too many Americans (or even people with green cards) who will work at that rate.

Perhaps this will sound a bit too "P.C." to some, but the main reason for this is because legislation passed many decades ago (like FLSA) was done at a time when unions were both very protectionist and pretty racist (at least the AFL, since we're even talking about before the CIO existed, much less before they merged in '55). At that time, it was mostly blacks doing farm work and domestic servant jobs. The convenient compromise between agitated unions and politicians was to satisfy the union leaders while selling out the black workers. So now you have the present situation.

2) Seems like everyone wants to blame the workers more than the people who hire them. Some of you put some blame on the corporations (and small companies) hiring illegals, but the majority is put on workers. Bottom line - absolute bottom fucking line - is that they won't come if there aren't jobs. Clamp down on legitimate businesses who are hiring illegals, and clamp down hard. Revoke business licenses. Criminal charges and jail time for hiring illegals. Long-term, federal conspiracy charges for those at the top. That is ABSOLUTELY the ONLY way you'll see things change. It's like drugs... as long as people want them, they'll make their way in, no matter what (and no matter how hard you try to keep them out)... the profit motive is too great. Eliminate demand, and you eliminate the supply.

3) Some people do come and exploit the system, but it's a gross exaggeration to say it's most of the illegals. As for US citizens... we definitely exploit the welfare system, whether it's welfare in the traditional sense or in the "corporate welfare" sense.

4) If you go to a day labor agency, you pay taxes no matter what. The same isn't true for guys standing on a street corner or in the Home Depot parking lot. But going through an agency, you pay taxes.

5) There have actually been a few studies about the impact of illegals on Social Security (SS). Interestingly, there are many (many) illegals here using "false" (i.e. someone else's) SS# to gain employment. They are paying into SS. But the really interesting part is that they don't collect or claim on their with-holdings, so that just rolls into our current system, making it more sustainable (i.e. it'll take longer for the SS system to go totally bankrupt due to the fact that we have so many illegals paying into the system who can never claim benefits).

None of this is to excuse illegal behavior, but I'm fucking tired of bullshit arguments by politicians that don't address the real issue. You want illegal immigration to end? Make it so that nobody takes the risk to hire them. That's the only viable option. Some will say that's "anti-capitalist" or "anti-business", but those are bullshit arguments. Capitalism works only if the rule of law (and therefore the rules of the market) are enforced. As long as businesses have an incentive to cheat (i.e. break the law and hire illegals), they will. Destroy the incentive to cheat, and you'll end the problem. Nothing else will work.

Six66Mike - 6-8-2007 at 12:00 AM

I think the thread should be locked now, random hit it home with that last post lol.

random - 6-8-2007 at 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Six66Mike
I think the thread should be locked now, random hit it home with that last post lol.

You'd love my critique of the war in Iraq and that "debate" among politicians.

DaveMoral - 6-8-2007 at 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline

Quote:

)

You wanted my response, here it is. The system is broken. You can't blame people for doing what is natural to the species and migrating where there are greater resources and greater means to support you and your's. Legal and illegal means shit to people trying to survive. These people are already here, and rather than treating them like expendables they should be treated like human beings and given their due... especially from a government and society that likes to take the moral high ground on humanitarianism.

Fact of the matter is, the problem is not in the people moving all over trying to make their way in the world... the problem is corperate America. Not only have they created the problem here, but for the most part they've created the problems in the home countries of folks who are fleeing a bad situation in Mexico and Central and South America. Not to mention various other parts of the world. Look at the demand for corn these days and all the products it's used for, motherfuckers in Mexico can't afford to buy the corn they use as a staple of their diet. Corn is for them like rice is to Asians or potatoes to Americans.

It's such a sham when people pull the "working class" pride bit at the expense of other sectors of the working class. It's nothing short of racism and xenophobia, no matter how you try to slice it. Talk about legality, and you tell me. Barely survive, if at all, while waiting years to deal with legal red tape or hop a small fence on an imaginary border and really start to come up? It's like the drug analogy. Work your ass off at 2 or 3 jobs and get treated like shit making pennies and have the moral honor of hard work, OR sling a little dope on the street corner or even just deliver some dope for a dealer and make hundreds and thousands in very short order? Which do you think people are going to find more appealing in a society that values wealth and gadgetry over the moral value of a hard day's work?

That and everything random and steve have said.

Discipline - 6-8-2007 at 02:01 AM

So you believe that people should be rewarded for breaking the law?

DaveMoral - 6-8-2007 at 02:03 AM

In this case? Yeah, I don't really mind. Especially when it's big business that should be taken to task rather than the people trying to survive.

JawnDiablo - 6-8-2007 at 08:48 AM

Born In East LA was a great movie.....

Siczine.com - 6-8-2007 at 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline

Quote:

)

You wanted my response, here it is. The system is broken. You can't blame people for doing what is natural to the species and migrating where there are greater resources and greater means to support you and your's. Legal and illegal means shit to people trying to survive. These people are already here, and rather than treating them like expendables they should be treated like human beings and given their due... especially from a government and society that likes to take the moral high ground on humanitarianism.

Fact of the matter is, the problem is not in the people moving all over trying to make their way in the world... the problem is corperate America. Not only have they created the problem here, but for the most part they've created the problems in the home countries of folks who are fleeing a bad situation in Mexico and Central and South America. Not to mention various other parts of the world. Look at the demand for corn these days and all the products it's used for, motherfuckers in Mexico can't afford to buy the corn they use as a staple of their diet. Corn is for them like rice is to Asians or potatoes to Americans.

It's like the drug analogy. Work your ass off at 2 or 3 jobs and get treated like shit making pennies and have the moral honor of hard work, OR sling a little dope on the street corner or even just deliver some dope for a dealer and make hundreds and thousands in very short order? Which do you think people are going to find more appealing in a society that values wealth and gadgetry over the moral value of a hard day's work?

Way to compare hopping the boarder to drug dealing. Both are illegal and easy way outs. So pretty much you're saying it's fine for illegals to do the wrong thing if they can benefit from it. Then how can you complain about what corporate America is doing or better yet, Americans who do abuse the welfare system? It seems to me you're suggesting that two wrongs make a right. Yeah that's reallllllly going to fix the big problem here.

JawnDiablo - 6-8-2007 at 10:46 AM

Sometimes when I go to the wawa in my neighborhood I am amazed by how many Mexicans fit into a van. I mean these guys should be contortionists in the circus or something. To fit all them in there with the lawnmowers and shit.....damn!

upyerbum - 6-8-2007 at 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by random
Seems like everyone wants to blame the workers more than the people who hire them.

Exactly.

Siczine.com - 6-8-2007 at 11:55 AM

I think the majority of the people in this thread are not blaming the illegals alone, though you cannot deny they are a part of the problem. It's not hard to see that the government and the officials that are running it are a joke. And let me not forget about the greed mongers that head these modern day slave institutions, because they are the ones pulling the politicians strings. Because in a capitalistic country such ours, at the end of the day, it's money that really counts.

DaveMoral - 6-8-2007 at 03:50 PM

Again, how can you blame people for trying to survive. I'm not saying hopping the border is exactly like drug dealing, I'm saying the survival aspect of it is similar. Border hopping, however, is not an "easy way out" particularly when many of the jobs are dangerous, the act of crossing is dangerous, and every day is lived with the possibility of deportation. Do you even have any idea what people go through to get here? Shit dude... it's not safe, it's not pretty and lots of people die doing it. Either by way of Mexican gangs who control trains that are hopped, or by racist vigilante groups patrolling the border.

Siczine.com - 6-8-2007 at 04:40 PM

To them it's apparently easier than trying to get a green card, so that's an easy way out. If it's so dangerous and so many people die then why fucking do it? To survive? I'd assume more people die in Mexico from trying to cross the boarder than from starvation if they would've stayed in their own country.

And again I will reiterate what I already stated, it's Mexico's job to take care of its citizens, not ours. If we had none our countrymen in poverty and our fucking veterans taken care of and everything was peachy keen here, then we could do something. We need to fix ourselves.

tireironsaint - 6-8-2007 at 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by random
Couple of quick points since I got bored with some of the arguments and skimmed over some comments...

1) Regarding farmworkers. Believe it or not, you don't have to pay farmworkers or domestic servants the federal minimum wage. They're excluded from most labor law, including the Fair Labor Standards Act. Farmworkers are typically paid piece-rate at rates that are expected to be below minimum wage. It's legal. An there really aren't too many Americans (or even people with green cards) who will work at that rate.

Perhaps this will sound a bit too "P.C." to some, but the main reason for this is because legislation passed many decades ago (like FLSA) was done at a time when unions were both very protectionist and pretty racist (at least the AFL, since we're even talking about before the CIO existed, much less before they merged in '55). At that time, it was mostly blacks doing farm work and domestic servant jobs. The convenient compromise between agitated unions and politicians was to satisfy the union leaders while selling out the black workers. So now you have the present situation.

2) Seems like everyone wants to blame the workers more than the people who hire them. Some of you put some blame on the corporations (and small companies) hiring illegals, but the majority is put on workers. Bottom line - absolute bottom fucking line - is that they won't come if there aren't jobs. Clamp down on legitimate businesses who are hiring illegals, and clamp down hard. Revoke business licenses. Criminal charges and jail time for hiring illegals. Long-term, federal conspiracy charges for those at the top. That is ABSOLUTELY the ONLY way you'll see things change. It's like drugs... as long as people want them, they'll make their way in, no matter what (and no matter how hard you try to keep them out)... the profit motive is too great. Eliminate demand, and you eliminate the supply.

3) Some people do come and exploit the system, but it's a gross exaggeration to say it's most of the illegals. As for US citizens... we definitely exploit the welfare system, whether it's welfare in the traditional sense or in the "corporate welfare" sense.

4) If you go to a day labor agency, you pay taxes no matter what. The same isn't true for guys standing on a street corner or in the Home Depot parking lot. But going through an agency, you pay taxes.

5) There have actually been a few studies about the impact of illegals on Social Security (SS). Interestingly, there are many (many) illegals here using "false" (i.e. someone else's) SS# to gain employment. They are paying into SS. But the really interesting part is that they don't collect or claim on their with-holdings, so that just rolls into our current system, making it more sustainable (i.e. it'll take longer for the SS system to go totally bankrupt due to the fact that we have so many illegals paying into the system who can never claim benefits).

None of this is to excuse illegal behavior, but I'm fucking tired of bullshit arguments by politicians that don't address the real issue. You want illegal immigration to end? Make it so that nobody takes the risk to hire them. That's the only viable option. Some will say that's "anti-capitalist" or "anti-business", but those are bullshit arguments. Capitalism works only if the rule of law (and therefore the rules of the market) are enforced. As long as businesses have an incentive to cheat (i.e. break the law and hire illegals), they will. Destroy the incentive to cheat, and you'll end the problem. Nothing else will work.

While I do agree with more of what you said here than you seem to assume I would, I do have a couple of points of contention with this statement.

I can't speak for anyone else's meanings here, but none of the jobs I was actually talking about are farm jobs. I've never known anyone who was a farmworker and do not claim to speak for anyone who is one. I do, however, know several people who are tradesmen and work in various position in the construction field. As far as I can tell, it is still quite illegal to pay those people anything below the minimum wage. A lot of effort has been put into learning the skills that help those tradesmen advance and yet they are rapidly losing ground to unskilled workers who are willing to do whatever is asked of them, simply because they are here illegally and so are willing to work for much lower pay. That's not a racist assumption, nor is it untrue.

I certainly think the real root of this problem lies in a system that happily allows this cycle to continue because of the money it puts in the bosses pockets and I went into detail earlier about my position on that, but I'm guessing you skimmed over that. I do disagree that the only way to stop this is to clamp down on the businesses hiring illegals. I agree that it needs to be done and that it would have a large impact, but as long as people are willing to break the law to make more money, they will still try to get around that. I think that it needs to be addressed on both sides, the employers as well as the illegals, it's not viable to look at this as an "either or" situation.

As for exploiting the system, I think of things like making sure a child is born in this country in order for that child to get automatic citizenship is exploiting it. I think that taking the jobs of legal citizens and decreasing the average pay of an industry is exploiting the system. I see sending the money earned in this country out of it and thereby breaking the cycle that supports a community as exploiting it. When I think of welfare being exploited, I'm not limiting that to things like ripping off the food stamp program and that sort of thing, I'm thinking about communities losing out because the economy is going down the shitter for a variety of reasons.

Day labor agencies are incredibly easy to exploit, most people hiring laborers are more than happy to say they fired the laborers they hired through the agency in order to pay the laborer directly and under the table to circumvent anybody paying taxes. Just because the agencies are set up to make sure taxes are paid doesn't mean it happens that way. We're talking about agencies who are dealing with people who are already breaking the law just by being here, so it's not like it's all above board.

tireironsaint - 6-8-2007 at 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
the so-called "illegals"

And that's another thing that drives me nuts, how can anyone take issue with calling these people ILLEGALS? That's what they are, it's not a racist term, it's valid no matter the ethnicity or country of origin, they came here illegally thus they ARE illegal immigrants.

DaveMoral - 6-8-2007 at 05:09 PM

^The fact that it sort of denigrates their basic humanity, first of all.

tireironsaint - 6-8-2007 at 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
This is a heated debate and I tire of the right wing attitudes thrown about when this shit pops off. How can you fault anyone for doing exactly what has caused the human species to propogate and grow? How can you fault people for doing precisely what is natural, migrate where there are greater resources? Shit, can you blame people? Do you have any idea what kind of hoops you have to jump through in order to migrate legally? Shit... people are starving and dying, and yet they are kept queued up for YEARS and allowed to starve and die. Of course people are going to cross borders, especially when historically those borders were as permeable as it gets.

They weren't treated as more concrete until the Depression anyways, and that was just convenient white scapegoating onto non-white people. It was no different than what those same California whites ended up doing to the Okies when they started migrating out of the dust bowl! The current favorite scapegoat is the Mexican illegal immigrant(no one, of course, is up in arms about illegal Irish or German immigrants), wait until the stock market crashes again... see how your fellow Americans are treated by the haves.

I can fault people for taking the opportunities of others by illegal means just like I fault any other thieves taking anything from someone. I can fault people for breaking valid laws and in so doing bringing the economy down to a level where everyone aside from the rich keep falling farther and farther behind. When there is a higher percentage of Americans living below the poverty line every year and we have people breaking the law and driving wages down in the process, I hold them accountable. Of course, I hold the businesses that hire them responsible for hiring them, but when many illegals are also identity thieves who are using another person's identity to gain employment, it can make it more difficult to tell whether or not the employer knows the status of a hire. Granted, most do know and let it slide because it's easy to claim ignorance and there's nothing more than a slap on the wrist involved if they're caught anyway.

As was already pointed out by someone in this thread, illegals other than Mexicans and/or South Americans are a much smaller percentage of the total immigrant population. Does that excuse them? Fuck no, illegal is illegal, it just doesn't get talked about as much because it isn't nearly as big a situation as it is with Mexican and South American immigrants.

tireironsaint - 6-8-2007 at 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
^The fact that it sort of denigrates their basic humanity, first of all.

You mean like calling someone who steals from someone else a thief? Would you prefer that name to illegal? They're both descriptive names for the same people. Of course the name is seen as negative, it's in regard to a negative action taken by these people.

DaveMoral - 6-8-2007 at 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tireironsaint

Quote:

You know what's funny about most of what you said here... most economists disagree with you.

tireironsaint - 6-8-2007 at 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
It's such a sham when people pull the "working class" pride bit at the expense of other sectors of the working class. It's nothing short of racism and xenophobia, no matter how you try to slice it. Talk about legality, and you tell me. Barely survive, if at all, while waiting years to deal with legal red tape or hop a small fence on an imaginary border and really start to come up? It's like the drug analogy. Work your ass off at 2 or 3 jobs and get treated like shit making pennies and have the moral honor of hard work, OR sling a little dope on the street corner or even just deliver some dope for a dealer and make hundreds and thousands in very short order? Which do you think people are going to find more appealing in a society that values wealth and gadgetry over the moral value of a hard day's work?

It's racist and xenophobic to call out people for stealing? That's a load of shit. A very large and very smelly load of shit. As I've said a few times already, the actions of illegal immigrants is and has been driving the Nation's economy down further every year. I don't know about you, but where I live the average person is working two or more jobs just to make ends meet. I do it, most of my friends do it, it's an expected thing because it's just not possible to live on a single income due to rising costs and shrinking wages. Is that ENTIRELY due to illegal workers? Of course not, but it's a good portion of the problem.

tireironsaint - 6-8-2007 at 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
most economists disagree with you.

Feel free to back that up and to clarify what exactly it is in there that you're referring to.

Siczine.com - 6-8-2007 at 06:07 PM

Yeah economists would say the economy is doing better because the rich get richer but that doesn't help the middle class, the lower middle class or the poor. So that's bullshit.

DaveMoral - 6-8-2007 at 09:15 PM

Well, you're scapegoating the immigrant population and not taking into account other factors. Truth is, our economy is moving increasingly away from a manufacturing based economy with those jobs outsourced overseas where cheaper labor means cheaper prices for the American consumer. That's not something most of us is willing to part with. So we are moving towards a service based workforce... and quite frankly, just packing up 12 million people that make up a significant numbers in service based jobs is going to do some damage. Ultimately prices WILL rise if "natives" try to get those jobs... if they are even willing... because Lord knows most aren't willing to work for minimum wage.

The tax on the welfare system is hugely overstated too.

More importantly, packing up and shipping off people isn't going to do anything because if there's nothing else we've learned is that when someone gets deported they work their way back into the country illegally and start the process again. Tougher enforcement doesn't work because people are smarter than the system and figure it out, plus zeal for enforcement gradually lessens. The proposed guest worker program is literally the only thing that has precedent in the nation's history. Check out the Bracero Program from 1942 to 1964. During its run there was a dramatic decrease in illegal immigration. It had its failings, but those sorts of kinks can be hammered out with a new bill.

Thing is, you've got to figure out something to deal with 12 million people already here... many already contributing far more to the economy than they are taking from it. Most of which have been here for more than a decade. It's not as clear cut as granting "amnesty" or deportation.

Quite frankly I think getting so hung up on "the law" that we throw out humanitarian concern and compassion is far more detrimental to our country than providing a means for legalization and a wider reaching guest worker program.

tireironsaint - 6-8-2007 at 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
Well, you're scapegoating the immigrant population and not taking into account other factors. Truth is, our economy is moving increasingly away from a manufacturing based economy with those jobs outsourced overseas where cheaper labor means cheaper prices for the American consumer. That's not something most of us is willing to part with. So we are moving towards a service based workforce... and quite frankly, just packing up 12 million people that make up a significant numbers in service based jobs is going to do some damage. Ultimately prices WILL rise if "natives" try to get those jobs... if they are even willing... because Lord knows most aren't willing to work for minimum wage.

The tax on the welfare system is hugely overstated too.

More importantly, packing up and shipping off people isn't going to do anything because if there's nothing else we've learned is that when someone gets deported they work their way back into the country illegally and start the process again. Tougher enforcement doesn't work because people are smarter than the system and figure it out, plus zeal for enforcement gradually lessens. The proposed guest worker program is literally the only thing that has precedent in the nation's history. Check out the Bracero Program from 1942 to 1964. During its run there was a dramatic decrease in illegal immigration. It had its failings, but those sorts of kinks can be hammered out with a new bill.

Thing is, you've got to figure out something to deal with 12 million people already here... many already contributing far more to the economy than they are taking from it. Most of which have been here for more than a decade. It's not as clear cut as granting "amnesty" or deportation.

Quite frankly I think getting so hung up on "the law" that we throw out humanitarian concern and compassion is far more detrimental to our country than providing a means for legalization and a wider reaching guest worker program.

Hmm, you start off this statement with an absolute untruth. As we've already been over a few times, I'm addressing another factor, that being the employers and the system that encourages the cycle for the rich. There's no scapegoating going on in anything I've said, I'm not saying the illegals caused the problem, just that what they are doing is having a negative impact on legal citizens. As for jobs in the manufacturing industry, your statement here is the first time that's entered the discussion in this thread, so you can throw it right out as relevant. Nobody here has claimed that illegals have caused that shift away from U.S. manufacturing. I do agree that we have been moving rapidly towards a service industry based workforce, hell that's most of my work history too. As for it doing a significant amount of damage by removing the illegals from the service industry, I can't see that as being more than a small hiccup in the day to day routine even if they were to all be deported on the very same day and that sure as shit won't happen. I've seen places emptied out by Immigration Officers coming around and it took no real time at all for all those positions to be filled by a new crew. There are millions of unskilled workers entering the workforce every day looking for jobs like the ones that would be vacated if this mass deportation happened.

Prices are rising steadily even with all these illegal workers and as people keep pointing out, supply and demand will dictate all kinds of things. In other words, if wages increase because the workers are all legal, then prices will rise too, but if prices rise to a point where nobody can buy anything, those prices won't last. It makes no sense for companies to charge more than their customers can pay for goods and as reluctant as they may be to lose some profit margin they will have to if the economy (in real world/working man's terms) is to improve.

As for the welfare system, if you read my last comment at all, you should notice I was talking more in terms of the welfare or well being of the community than the actual government programs grouped under the heading "welfare".

Again, as I just said, the entire answer does NOT lay in ONLY deporting the illegal workers, it is in both resolving their status and in removing the employers incentive for hiring people under those conditions.

In address to your comment about these workers contributing to the economy, I'd love to see a breakdown of that. If by contributing, you mean to imply that they are providing a higher profit margin for their rich bosses, then I guess technically you are correct. Unfortunately, as those of us who grew up in Reagan's shadow can assure you, trickle down economics is a fucking lie. In addition, the wages those workers make are largely going back home to their families instead of being spent in the communities they have a direct influence on by working and living in.

You keep coming back to the misinformed idea that everybody who is against illegal workers is throwing out any humanitarian concern and that seems to be a big sticking point for you. As a few of us have said, it's not that we are against helping people, it's that there is a higher priority in that we have a nation full of people who need help already and they are being passed over in favor of people who are breaking this country's laws in order to take advantage of opportunities that used to be available to everyone. It's incredibly short sighted to think that by allowing these people to continue to work for criminally low wages that this problem will somehow resolve itself. If we can clear the slate, get ourselves back on track and have a truly healthy economy, meaning one that doesn't just make the rich richer and fuck everyone else, THEN we can try to help out our neighbors. Basically what we have is a nation-sized version of what happened in New Orleans. The country is in disaster mode and we are being looted. Yes, that's a vastly simplified version of reality, but while we are struggling to get by (let alone get ahead), our neighbors (who admittedly are worse off) are coming in and taking needed tools away.

Discipline - 6-8-2007 at 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral
Quite frankly I think getting so hung up on "the law" that we throw out humanitarian concern and compassion is far more detrimental to our country than providing a means for legalization and a wider reaching guest worker program.

I don't see it as being hung up on the law. We have no obligation whatsoever to take care of the poor of the world, but we help out anyway. The fact that they have broken several laws isn't a small thing. If they can't provide for their families in their own countries, how is that our fault? Why should we ignore established laws? If people aren't willing to go through the legal process of immigrating they have NO RIGHT TO BE HERE. It's that simple. In North America we have enough poor people, enough children going without regular meals, enough homeless people. These are the people we need to look after, not the poor people in other sovereign nations.