Thorp and Sailor's Grave Board

Tonight on Encore at 8 ET

DaveMoral - 9-5-2007 at 07:05 PM

American Hardcore!

Siczine.com - 9-5-2007 at 08:28 PM

It's also on the OnDemand for viewing anytime.

JawnDiablo - 9-5-2007 at 08:40 PM

and in my DVD collection

clevohardcore - 9-5-2007 at 09:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juandiablo
and in my DVD collection

Discipline - 9-5-2007 at 09:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by clevohardcore
Quote:
Originally posted by juandiablo
and in my DVD collection

BDx13 - 9-5-2007 at 10:59 PM

ya know, i got the dvd for my birthday two months ago and i still haven't watched it.
WEAK!

JawnDiablo - 9-5-2007 at 11:28 PM

shame on you Duane.....

DaveMoral - 9-6-2007 at 08:08 AM

Such a good flick. All that stuff was so far before my time, but it's like watching the rich early history of my "tribe." Haha.

morgan - 9-6-2007 at 09:08 AM

Godd documentary. My only gripe is that they left out a few bands that I thought deserved a mention, mainly the Dead Kennedys, and the Misfits. I guess that was for legal reasons though.

gavin - 9-6-2007 at 09:30 AM

i liked it but i didnt think it was great
much of the footage i had seen before
and honestly, they spent too much time on bad brains, who have been covered a million times before

JawnDiablo - 9-6-2007 at 09:31 AM

yeah i agree Morgan. The book had a whole section dedicated to the Misfits and Dead Kennedys should def had gotten some minutes in there.

morgan - 9-6-2007 at 11:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by juandiablo
yeah i agree Morgan. The book had a whole section dedicated to the Misfits and Dead Kennedys should def had gotten some minutes in there.


Who wrote the book? Definately be interested in checking it out.

JawnDiablo - 9-6-2007 at 11:53 AM

Stephen Blush or something I think.
You can get it on Amazon

hardtone - 9-6-2007 at 01:50 PM

The only thing I dislike about American Hardcore is most of the people from the first era 77- 85 are bitter ass fucks. To really discredit anybody that discovered punk/hardcore after 85 which (the second era) include people like me is retarded.

I?m tired of hearing when I started listening to punk & hardcore (in mid 80?s) that the scene is dead, it?s over. Fuck that it?s over to them, for me it was just the beginning. I know they started it, and I totally respect that, but to say that new people can?t enjoy what was created by a group of people is just elitist bullshit to me. I have loved this music for twenty years, am I still clueless like they treated us in the mid 80?s.

Ian said hardcore left him behind, that?s because all things change, it?s called natural progression. Look at the differences from the second era to now. You don?t see me calling new kids out saying what they love now is bullshit. I understand hardcore means different things to many people. We all have different views about this, so why would I push my concepts on someone else.

They?re really pissed because it?s a thriving business and they struggled in their day. I understand the lifestyle aspect of it is not the same; most new kids don?t live punk, like in the old days. Despite what they think, hardcore still lives and it will keep evolving as long as new kids keep discovering it?

It?s bigger than any one band or one person.

Siczine.com - 9-6-2007 at 01:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by hardtone
The only thing I dislike about American Hardcore is most of the people from the first era 77- 85 are bitter ass fucks. To really discredit anybody that discovered punk/hardcore after 85 which (the second era) include people like me in retarded.

I?m tired of hearing when I started listening to punk & hardcore (in mid 80?s) that the scene is dead, it?s over. Fuck that it?s over to them, for me it was just the beginning. I know they started it, and I totally respect that, but to say that new people can?t enjoy what was created by a group of people is just elitist bullshit to me. I have loved this music for twenty years, am I still clueless like they treated us in the mid 80?s.

Ian said hardcore left him behind, that?s because all things change, it?s called natural progression. Look at the differences from the second era to now. You don?t see me calling new kids out saying what they love now is bullshit. I understand hardcore means different things to many people. We all have different views about this, so why would I push my concepts on someone else.

They?re really pissed because it?s a thriving business and they struggled in their day. I understand the lifestyle aspect of it is not the same; most new kids don?t live punk, like in the old days. Despite what they think, hardcore still lives and it will keep evolving as long as new kids keep discovering it?

It?s bigger than any one band or one person.


Well put.

gavin - 9-6-2007 at 02:06 PM

i agree with hardtone
but much of the "later" bands just fucking blow

Jason the Magnificent - 9-6-2007 at 02:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
i liked it but i didnt think it was great
much of the footage i had seen before
and honestly, they spent too much time on bad brains, who have been covered a million times before


Where "commercially?"

Jason the Magnificent - 9-6-2007 at 02:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by hardtone
The only thing I dislike about American Hardcore is most of the people from the first era 77- 85 are bitter ass fucks. To really discredit anybody that discovered punk/hardcore after 85 which (the second era) include people like me in retarded.

I?m tired of hearing when I started listening to punk & hardcore (in mid 80?s) that the scene is dead, it?s over. Fuck that it?s over to them, for me it was just the beginning. I know they started it, and I totally respect that, but to say that new people can?t enjoy what was created by a group of people is just elitist bullshit to me. I have loved this music for twenty years, am I still clueless like they treated us in the mid 80?s.

Ian said hardcore left him behind, that?s because all things change, it?s called natural progression. Look at the differences from the second era to now. You don?t see me calling new kids out saying what they love now is bullshit. I understand hardcore means different things to many people. We all have different views about this, so why would I push my concepts on someone else.

They?re really pissed because it?s a thriving business and they struggled in their day. I understand the lifestyle aspect of it is not the same; most new kids don?t live punk, like in the old days. Despite what they think, hardcore still lives and it will keep evolving as long as new kids keep discovering it?

It?s bigger than any one band or one person.


You also can't not agree with them if you can step back and take an objective look at hardcore. They founded a scene of extreme punk rock and it was deemed HC. From 86 till present it has been 100% retro (maybe the 90's sxe vegan movement can loosely be attached as a pure progression of the ideology). Its either bands completely aping the sound of those bands or metal bands deeming themselves hc because they're involved in the social structure of DIY music championed by these bands.

This is not to say there aren't bands still putting out good music, but why they feel the need to legitimize themselves by being "hardcore" bands, when musically they couldn't be more off target is the bigger question. This is why theres a million hardcore bands and 10 good bands.

Siczine.com - 9-6-2007 at 03:30 PM

Music has progressed a lot in the last 20 years believe it or not. There's so many god damned genres it's enough to drive your head through a wall and I do agree that too many bands attach themselves to hardcore but I never agreed with the fact that if you don't sound like a first wave band that you're not hardcore. Most of my favorite hardcore comes from the more metallic scene which started to grow much bigger in the second wave (Breakdown is a great example, I mean shit they were considered metalcore to a certain extent, Integrity is another) but to most of the people in America Hardcore, book or movie completely denounce anything past 85 and that's bullshit.

gavin - 9-6-2007 at 04:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jason the Magnificent
Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
i liked it but i didnt think it was great
much of the footage i had seen before
and honestly, they spent too much time on bad brains, who have been covered a million times before


Where "commercially?"



i just mean everyone knows the bad brains story and hoinestly at this point i dont care about them anymore
ive heard all the stories, seen all the footage and realize H.R. is a fuckin wacko crack head
i would rather they spent the time on A.F. or some other bands that got little to no coverage(negative approach being one)

gavin - 9-6-2007 at 04:20 PM

the question becomes "what is the REAL def. of what hardcore is"?
as said, everyone has a different answer to this question

as someoine who started seeing bands in the mid 80s, my opinion is that the first wave was it
i saw most of the known bands of the second wave at one time or another
while some were great and still hold up, looking back i find much of it laughable
i mean fuck.........SHELTER?!?!?!?!
come on
alot of the bands that were coming from "hardcore" at that time were really silly and i saw as a bad joke that eventually made me stop going to shows

Jason the Magnificent - 9-6-2007 at 04:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
Quote:
Originally posted by Jason the Magnificent
Quote:
Originally posted by MrBadVibes
i liked it but i didnt think it was great
much of the footage i had seen before
and honestly, they spent too much time on bad brains, who have been covered a million times before


Where "commercially?"



i just mean everyone knows the bad brains story and hoinestly at this point i dont care about them anymore
ive heard all the stories, seen all the footage and realize H.R. is a fuckin wacko crack head
i would rather they spent the time on A.F. or some other bands that got little to no coverage(negative approach being one)


I don't think this guy was making a movie with the sole hopes of telling HC kids about bands they already know about. I'd guess his ambitions were a bit bigger than that.

Jason the Magnificent - 9-6-2007 at 04:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Siczine.com
Music has progressed a lot in the last 20 years believe it or not. There's so many god damned genres it's enough to drive your head through a wall and I do agree that too many bands attach themselves to hardcore but I never agreed with the fact that if you don't sound like a first wave band that you're not hardcore. Most of my favorite hardcore comes from the more metallic scene which started to grow much bigger in the second wave (Breakdown is a great example, I mean shit they were considered metalcore to a certain extent, Integrity is another) but to most of the people in America Hardcore, book or movie completely denounce anything past 85 and that's bullshit.


The early/good Breakdown was nowhere near metalcore. The later stuff with Dijan on guitar is 90% terrible. The only good 'newer' stuff was the first ep with streetfight on it.

What everyone (not here specifically...this is an ongoing debate in many places) is failing to realize is when you interview hc's founders they're going to say anything past 85 isn't hardcore because they're being interviewed about "their" hardcore and anything past then has nothing to do with them.

Siczine.com - 9-6-2007 at 05:43 PM

Like stated already, the definition of hardcore is different to many people across the board. But I was always under the assumption it was more of an ideal than a sound but apparently that just isn't the case. To me Balboa from Philly is a good example, they play what can be almost called post-hardcore but their lyrics are more hardcore than 90% of the so-called hardcore bands that have come out in the last decade.

DaveMoral - 9-6-2007 at 06:13 PM

It does feel like dudes are cheapening my experience with hardcore when they say "it's over, it ended in 85, get over it" or... as one dude put it at the end of the film(can't remember who) "go home, your cages are clean now." Something certainly changed, but goddamn. I'm sure the excitement I felt at my first few shows, and the first time I played in a band, and sticking with my people to watch my back from people who either weren't down with us within our little scene or outsides entirely... it was pretty much the same way they felt. I had something different to be pissed off about in my day. Instead of trickle down economics and Ronald Reagan, I had veganism and a bunch of drugged out friends that bailed out on me in junior high and high school.

I'll say it, the vegan straight edge period of hardcore in the 90s was definitely the next passionate evolution of hardcore. That lasted basically 'til 98. Then hardcore died for me. I'm curiously waiting to see what's going to rise up next. Meanwhile I do think 90% of the shit called "hardcore" now, isn't. I come here, though, to say that shit... instead of raining on some new kid's parade.

newbreedbrian - 9-6-2007 at 07:12 PM

i can't seem to understand why everyone is pissed about the time frame thing. this is a movie/book about the first wave of hardcore. get over it. that 's always been my favorite era of hardcore, been listening to most of those bands since i was a little kid. yea there were good bands after that era, but like geoff said alot of laughable shit as well that for some reason has become legendary now. of there has been a continuation of the scene the entire time but from a general perspective it's almost universally true that most of the original wave of bands either broke up, turned into shitty metal bands, or sold out to try and "make it" (whatever the fuck that means) by '86. if you're unhappy with your favorite shitty youth crew band not being included in this documentary, make your own. that's what this has always been about to me anyways. you're pissed at the way things are? get off your ass and do something about it. at the end of the day that's what really counts.

hardtone - 9-6-2007 at 07:51 PM

I didn't feel anybody here was pissed off because of what era they covered. That's the shit I first got into because it was considered a classic sound. Bands like Faith, Void, Bad Brains, DK, Minor Threat, Misfits, AF, Teen Idols, Black Flag were like classic rock to me.

I'm just stating that when I came around the older fucks were kind of miserable to the new kids (and the documentary reflects that). Like we are the blame for their scene being dead. So once the old heads stop hanging it opened up the opportunely for the new kids to start bands, labels, and zines?

Also the old heads are the ones that are pissed off, didn?t you hear someone say ?The young kids are having fun while I?m old and pissed off?. It sounds like they are the ones that resent the new generations of hardcore/punk rockers because of the potential of success?

Shit doesn?t bother me, there are plenty of younger bands doing better than mine financially speaking, I play for fun not getting my own tour bus. I think it?s funny that Ian McKay is pissed off, he should be happy that so many people hold him and his bands in high regard. If I left a mark like that, I would be happy that so many people connected to my music and just respected it?

JawnDiablo - 9-6-2007 at 07:55 PM

That's the shit I first got into because it was considered a classic sound. Bands like Faith, Void, Bad Brains, DK, Minor Threat, Misfits, AF, Teen Idols, Black Flag were like classic rock to me.

Hardtone

I couldn't have said it better

DaveMoral - 9-6-2007 at 07:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by newbreedbrian
i can't seem to understand why everyone is pissed about the time frame thing. this is a movie/book about the first wave of hardcore. get over it. that 's always been my favorite era of hardcore, been listening to most of those bands since i was a little kid. yea there were good bands after that era, but like geoff said alot of laughable shit as well that for some reason has become legendary now. of there has been a continuation of the scene the entire time but from a general perspective it's almost universally true that most of the original wave of bands either broke up, turned into shitty metal bands, or sold out to try and "make it" (whatever the fuck that means) by '86. if you're unhappy with your favorite shitty youth crew band not being included in this documentary, make your own. that's what this has always been about to me anyways. you're pissed at the way things are? get off your ass and do something about it. at the end of the day that's what really counts.


Haha. The only "youth crew" band I like is Judge.

Point is, at the end of American Hardcore these guys are griping about younger kids today and presumably in the 20 years since they let the first wave of hardcore die.

I remember jamming Minor Threat, DK, Bad Brains, AF, Warzone and all types of shit from that era because it was essential to what hardcore was, is and will always be. It just sucks to have my experience invalidated, or at least attempted to be invalidated, by a bitter 40/50 something that didn't have the gas to keep the shit alive. I came in on what could be called the last gasps of the 3rd wave of hardcore. It could be the 2nd, I don't know, but shit. Seems to me that later years there was more drive to keep things going past the 3 or 4 years people did in the "hey day."

Why are there 2nd wave bands that have been going on for well over a decade... some for two... and yet the most lauded of the old old school died so swiftly? Far as I can tell hardcore didn't stop being edgy and dangerous until Hatebreed started touring with Slayer regularly.