Agnostic Front & Ignite speak out about downloading

BDx13 - 1-4-2008 at 02:05 PM

http://www.distortedmagazine.com/issues/January2008/

http://www.punknews.org/article/27141

In a recent Distorted Magazine interview both Roger Miret of Agnostic Front and Zoli Teglas Ignite discussed how much the downloading trend is impacting negatively on the whole punk scene.

Not only is the impact being felt from a industry and commercial aspect, but both frontmen are finding that the messages they convey in their music is being lost as nobody is reading the lyrics that come with the CDs.

Zoli said:
They’re just downloading the music, so they’re not reading the lyrics and they don’t really know what the songs are about. With a CD you’ve got the booklet that contains so much information about what you are supporting. That is just one of the downsides of downloading, you miss out on all the extra’s that come along with a CD.

CR83 - 1-4-2008 at 02:32 PM

Not just with the illegal download sites but others as well. What about iTunes and Downloadpunk? No booklet there either. You can also look up the lyrics on the internet as well if you want.

JawnDiablo - 1-4-2008 at 02:38 PM

I haven't seen much of a "message" in either band's music in years....

MikeCore - 1-4-2008 at 02:43 PM

Quote:

Zoli said:
They’re just downloading the music, so they’re not reading the lyrics and they don’t really know what the songs are about. With a CD you’ve got the booklet that contains so much information about what you are supporting. That is just one of the downsides of downloading, you miss out on all the extra’s that come along with a CD.

I really could give a shit what Zoli or Roger have to say these days anyway. Then again I DL'd both bands new records last year and they where both horrible. These bands are shells of what they used to be and nobody wants to buy there crap anymore. Boo hoo. They both have changed their styles so much over the years that you wouldn't even recognize they where the same band if you listened to Victim in Pain then their new one and it's NOT a good thing. Same goes for Ignite. I used to love them back in '93/'94 when they still sounded like a HC band and I could relate to them but now they are trying to be some kind of rock band or something. They can keep it.

MikeCore - 1-4-2008 at 03:11 PM

Agnostic_Front-Warriors-(Promo)-2007-FNT

Ignite--Our_Darkest_Days_(Limited_Tour_Edition)-Retail-2007-OMA

0wn3D

XHonusWagnerX - 1-4-2008 at 03:15 PM

What the fuck is the message on the AF record?? I respect Roger, but come on! FAMILY... RESPECT... DMS... NEW YORK CITY! I think I can understand those without a lyric sheet.... *sigh.

DeathByForce - 1-4-2008 at 03:23 PM

They're just meatheads that don't know the business. That's obvious.

Kid Ugly - 1-4-2008 at 03:27 PM

I'm sure neither band has gotten new fans from bootlegged music of theirs, ever.

:rolleyes:

XHonusWagnerX - 1-4-2008 at 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kid Ugly
I'm sure neither band has gotten new fans from bootlegged music of theirs, ever.

:rolleyes:

WELL WELL said... and an amazing point!! I bet 1/2 the people into AF first heard them on a mix tape that a friend made them.

JawnDiablo - 1-4-2008 at 04:19 PM

I really could give a shit what Zoli or Roger have to say these days anyway. Then again I DL'd both bands new records last year and they where both horrible. These bands are shells of what they used to be and nobody wants to buy there crap anymore. Boo hoo. They both have changed their styles so much over the years that you wouldn't even recognize they where the same band if you listened to Victim in Pain then their new one and it's NOT a good thing. Same goes for Ignite. I used to love them back in '93/'94 when they still sounded like a HC band and I could relate to them but now they are trying to be some kind of rock band or something. They can keep it.

exactly what I was thinking

and

What the fuck is the message on the AF record?? I respect Roger, but come on! FAMILY... RESPECT... DMS... NEW YORK CITY! I think I can understand those without a lyric sheet.... *sigh.

I feel the same.
I mean what do these dudes think is "the message"

Bands like Sacred Reich and Nuclear Assault had what I considered to be a message in their lyrics. They were singing stuff that was worth reading the words. The meathead crap sung over Hatebreed's last 3 records played sideways just isn't noteworthy. I feel sorry for the kids just beginning to get into hardcore because it sucks ass...........

upyerbum - 1-4-2008 at 04:20 PM

The internet is the best thing that ever happenned to punk rock, period. Go back to the boardroom, boys.

JawnDiablo - 1-4-2008 at 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by XHonusWagnerX

Quote:

Originally posted by Kid Ugly
I'm sure neither band has gotten new fans from bootlegged music of theirs, ever.

:rolleyes:

WELL WELL said... and an amazing point!! I bet 1/2 the people into AF first heard them on a mix tape that a friend made them.

yeah
thank you\
and I beleive Mr Gavin made a great point at saying plenty of this shit all started through tape trading.
i had a double cassette deck as a kid and copied tons of crap...shit there was even a feature on there that did it in high speed so you could do it quicker....

Jason the Magnificent - 1-4-2008 at 04:37 PM

AF's best lyrics were written by Peter Steele. There goes that whole arguement.

JawnDiablo - 1-4-2008 at 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason the Magnificent
AF's best lyrics were written by Peter Steele. There goes that whole arguement.

Touche!
Cause For Alarm

JUICE MAYNE MSHC - 1-4-2008 at 04:46 PM

they could easily put their lyrics on their websites or sell a PDF of the booklet with their music on iTunes like Municipal Waste did with their new album.
Illegal downloading does hurt the bands' and labels' wallet to a degree but pining away for the days of CD's is ridiculous.

clevohardcore - 1-4-2008 at 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juandiablo
I haven't seen much of a "message" in either band's music in years....

Siczine.com - 1-4-2008 at 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JUICE MAYNE MSHC
Illegal downloading does hurt the bands' and labels' wallet to a degree but pining away for the days of CD's is ridiculous.

Fucking right.

Quote:

Originally posted by upyerbum
The internet is the best thing that ever happenned to punk rock, period. Go back to the boardroom, boys.

No doubt. It gives bands that wouldn't have been heard otherwise heard. And it gives you the ability to tell how shitty a band is without wasting hard earned $

XHonusWagnerX - 1-4-2008 at 06:37 PM

The only people making money off of AF (or any old hardcore bands) records are people selling 1st presses, colored vinyls, test presses etc of the OLD stuff. Guess the bands should have held on to that stuff it they wanted to make money selling records!

Let all those old bands put out a record so that they can get some buzz and then go out and play shows and sell merch. Thats how punk/hardcore bands make money!

godabandonedme - 1-5-2008 at 06:33 AM

Argh. If there was or is any message from these bands then they would know it would obviously be lost in the masses in sales or downloads anyway. First off the only people downloading those 2 albums are people into that music, people that grew up having to buy their cd's before all this bullshit anyway. If your so "for the scene" then stop complaining. If your not, at least stop writing lyrics about that an just come out and say it................second....this gave me a headache..................................when I really didn't need one. The reason I like Dropkick Murphys isn't cause they are big, but cause I liked them from the first time I heard them in like 98 and think Al Barr should have stayed with the Bruisers, but that's besides the point. HOWEVER, I still like the style and will still buy the cd and god forbid download it first. Thinking of AF I really really want to keep being into their shit but comments like this make me wana puke. Personally....?....Sounds like someones ship (*who defintily deserved it) came in a little late........and maybe is pissed they missed out on the boat.........Just my 2 though......

gavin - 1-5-2008 at 12:51 PM

i never heard one note from ignite and never will
a.f...........i give up on them
i love some of their stuff but the last few......fuck

i like bands that give shit away for free
you appreciate people checking your band and music out?
show them and give them something for wasting their time on you

when i was in a band, we sold some cd's for $5
then we all said "fuck it. people wanna check this crap out, they can have it" and we gave cd's to anyone who wanted them
now the web site has all the crap we did for free for people to check out thanks to duane

granted, my band was on a much smaller scale then these, but the idea is there

i dont care if one or one million people want to hear some shit we did
they get it for free
period

DaveMoral - 1-5-2008 at 04:09 PM

To me bitching about sales just sorta undermines any credibility in punk rock. To just add "well, the message is being lost too" as an addenda to the commercial element of it... well shit. Here's a brilliant fucking idea Rog, try annunciating clearly and actually speaking/shouting/singing in a way that can actually be understood. Besides, AF's got no right to say anything about the message being lost when they let Combat put out CFA and VIP on one disc with NO lyrics. I can certainly make out more lyrics on Another Voice or the new record than I can on Victim In Pain, which is often just too fast to understand. Lightyears better record than Warriors or Another Voice, but how the fuck are you supposed to understand what the dude's singing about if your brain can't keep up with it PLUS he garbles the fucking words to sound tough and to get the speed he needs to keep up with the music?

Barnesey - 1-5-2008 at 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisReed83
Not just with the illegal download sites but others as well. What about iTunes and Downloadpunk? No booklet there either. You can also look up the lyrics on the internet as well if you want.

Yeah, so many punk bands list the lyrics to their songs online.

barc0debaby - 1-5-2008 at 11:18 PM

Quote:

Here's a brilliant fucking idea Rog, try annunciating clearly and actually speaking/shouting/singing in a way that can actually be understood.

That shit bugs me big time, not just in his AF stuff, but with the disasters as well.

XHonusWagnerX - 1-5-2008 at 11:38 PM

Ive never really understood hardcore bands with 'a message' or some metal bands for that matter. In alot of cases a band might have something that they consider really important to say. IE: Dropdead and their message about politics and animal rights. The problem is that NO ONE can understand a damn thing that they say! Plus even if you DO choose to listen to the lyrics, you already know what they are singing about. its a perfect example of "Preaching to the choir"

Six66Mike - 1-6-2008 at 12:36 AM

I haven't read the articles but here's my thoughts on a few things.

- Without mp3's I wouldn't have discovered hundreds of bands I listen(ed) to at one point or saw live. It opened up a large new world for me in various genres of music, some I didn't even know existed and I fucking loved it.

- I largely got into punk/hardcore because of the message, sing about something useful once & a while, educate people with the open mic you've got. Get them on to something they might not have thought about otherwise.

- While I may initially download something, if I like it I will order it and support the band, and go see them live if they come around. When i was booking shows in Canada I often booked new bands I heard through mp3's as well, like Blacklisted not long after Our Youth Is Wasted came out.

- I will never download a FLAC as a high quality album in place of a CD. Mp3's are to sample, if you want high quality support the artist, buy the music. I still haven't found a way to understand why people download FLAC, if quality is that important and you like the band so much, buy it.

- Have always loved the cd booklet in my hand, checking out what is inside. Even something as simple as the thank you list is worth reading, see what bands they thank so you can go check them out too. Plus I love to see hundred's of CD's stacked on a shelf.

Trent Reznor just produced and sold some dude's shit in digital only and they sold a few thousand copies in mp3 etc. If bands offered say V2, V0 and FLAC rips at different reasonable prices, along with high res PDF CD booklet's, people would probably give them more money than they do now.

XHonusWagnerX - 1-6-2008 at 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Six66Mike
Plus I love to see hundred's of CD's stacked on a shelf.

Trent Reznor just produced and sold some dude's shit in digital only and they sold a few thousand copies in mp3 etc. If bands offered say V2, V0 and FLAC rips at different reasonable prices, along with high res PDF CD booklet's, people would probably give them more money than they do now.

This might sound dumb, but what is FLAC?

I remember when Public Enemy put out the "There's a Poison Goin' On" record as a ZIP DISC before it was a CD, LP or even a download! I thought that was pretty interesting and cool to see.

I definitly agree on thinking its cool to see hundreds of CDs stacked up. I think LPs are coolest, but CDs are a close second!!

Six66Mike - 1-6-2008 at 01:40 AM

FLAC is a lossless digital copy, whereas mp3 is compressed format. Wav is also lossless, the file sizes are much larger too. Then again it's only as lossless as the final CD, and with loudness wars these days a lot of CD's are compressed through the ass right at the source.

Voodoobillyman - 1-6-2008 at 03:03 AM

I read the article and although I agree with some of th points made in this thread I tend to agree with the loss of sales thing they are concerned with. These bands don't make alot of money off of these albums to begin with, so when they lose crucial sales to downloading it only hurts them more. Now before I end this I am guilty of doing this as much as any other, I buy alot of my CDs but won't run down a digital copy of something to listen to. I have a few copies from people here that are awesome and much appreciated! I still plan to actually purchase the CDs of a few bands I have copies of right now because I too love the whole package deal. On another quick note, Roger Miret is a very cool down to earth guy and has no pompous scenester air about him at all as far as I know. I also agree that the way I found mopst bands i have listened to is from reading the thanks notes on CDs I already owned. That is a quick way to find all kinds of new bands out there.

XHonusWagnerX - 1-6-2008 at 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
I also agree that the way I found mopst bands i have listened to is from reading the thanks notes on CDs I already owned. That is a quick way to find all kinds of new bands out there.

Thats how I found the MISFITS, from listening to Metallica talk about them.

Thats how I found PUBLIC ENEMY from hearing Anthrax talk about them.

Thats how I found ANGEL WITCH, from hearing Dave Mustain talk about them....

okay.... Angel Witch did suck, but 2 out of 3 aint bad!

gavin - 1-6-2008 at 12:16 PM

i did that too when i was 14
but its different now
myspace is the new cd liner notes

MikeCore - 1-6-2008 at 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBadVibes
i did that too when i was 14
but its different now
myspace is the new cd liner notes

Even though I don't agree with your hatred of YOT I have to agree on this. I found most of the bands that I listen to through VINYL linear notes not CD's. Don't get me wrong I eventually went out and re-bought (mostly used) CD versions of vinyl/tape records that I had but I don't listen to hardly any new music/bands or go to shows much anymore but I still have a thriving 'collection' of new music/bands that is for my personal use only. I wouldn't of bought this stuff in the first place so no lost sale from me :yes:

DaveMoral - 1-6-2008 at 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by XHonusWagnerX

Thats how I found PUBLIC ENEMY from hearing Anthrax talk about them.

You know what's funny? I discovered Anthrax because Public Enemy did Bring The Noise with Anthrax on Apocalypse 91.

Voodoobillyman - 1-7-2008 at 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBadVibes
i did that too when i was 14
but its different now
myspace is the new cd liner notes

Instant gratification, there is no real hunt anymore. It's nice sometimes, but then you think, shit, these fucking kids don't have to work for shit anymore, just point and click. I stopped using thanks notes because my collection was getting out of control and I did a stint in music rehab

As far as cassette, I held out as long as I could on buying any CDs, but then bands just stopped making cassettes altogether and went straight to CD, it was hard for me to go along with that change. I was also the last motherfuckin kid on my block to get an Ipod, I really wanted to avoid that thing, but now I LOVE IT!!!! Change is good........sometimes

clevohardcore - 1-7-2008 at 12:49 AM

THat how all bands get moticed. It's a network. Maybe once in a while you'll discover something on your own but really, it's all about the word of mouth.

JawnDiablo - 1-7-2008 at 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoobillyman

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBadVibes
i did that too when i was 14
but its different now
myspace is the new cd liner notes

I've had an Ipod for 2 years and just started using it....

MyOwnWay - 1-7-2008 at 10:10 AM

People that download entire albums illegaly, and do it often suck. Those are the fucks that take the shit because its "free". Thats what they're bitching about. Nerds that sit at their computer look for a band and download their entire dicography. Sure thats great they are into the music. But the fucking studio the band recorded in isnt free, the instruments werent free, the cost of the rehearsal space isnt free, the cost to tour blows... Do you see where I'm going with this?

I came into Hardcore while people were making each other mix tapes. Thats how I found out about 95% of the music I listened too. But it was songs, not entire albums. And if it was an entire album, I went out and bought the cassette (wasnt into cds yet). Most people dont do that. They take whats "free" to them and leave the integrity behind.

Now. I will admit. I do download songs. if I hear about a band I'll jump on slsk and download a song or two to check it out. To me that is no different than borrowing it from a friend. And I tell you all honestly, there is not a single band on my computer that I downloaded, and l loved, and did NOT buy their disc. To me thats no different than checking a band on myspace or a smaple clip from the FYE website, whatever.

But there is a lot being lost from the whole experience when not buying the music. I love reading liner notes, and thank yous, and (I did this when I was younger) listen to the record just staring at the album cover. Its an entire vibe thats getting lost. I think the "establishment" is taking shots in the dark on how to legaly stop this because it is out of control. Sure, bands want their music out there. But when, lets say 500,000 people download it from an illegal downloading source, thats a number lost in record sales that the band is owed for their work. Dont fucking kid yourselves. It is about the money. Its their fucking music so it should be about the money. Let them get paid for the time and effort they put into it.

gavin - 1-7-2008 at 10:19 AM

maybe if they stopped charging so god damn much for cds people would be more likely to buy cds
i see part of downloading stuff as a reaction to record co. and their rediculous pricing
"you wanna charge me $20 for a cd? ok, fuck you i'll get it on my own"
i like that aspect of it

Discipline - 1-7-2008 at 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MyOwnWay
People that download entire albums illegaly, and do it often suck. Those are the fucks that take the shit because its "free". Thats what they're bitching about. Nerds that sit at their computer look for a band and download their entire dicography. Sure thats great they are into the music. But the fucking studio the band recorded in isnt free, the instruments werent free, the cost of the rehearsal space isnt free, the cost to tour blows... Do you see where I'm going with this?

I came into Hardcore while people were making each other mix tapes. Thats how I found out about 95% of the music I listened too. But it was songs, not entire albums. And if it was an entire album, I went out and bought the cassette (wasnt into cds yet). Most people dont do that. They take whats "free" to them and leave the integrity behind.

Now. I will admit. I do download songs. if I hear about a band I'll jump on slsk and download a song or two to check it out. To me that is no different than borrowing it from a friend. And I tell you all honestly, there is not a single band on my computer that I downloaded, and l loved, and did NOT buy their disc. To me thats no different than checking a band on myspace or a smaple clip from the FYE website, whatever.

But there is a lot being lost from the whole experience when not buying the music. I love reading liner notes, and thank yous, and (I did this when I was younger) listen to the record just staring at the album cover. Its an entire vibe thats getting lost. I think the "establishment" is taking shots in the dark on how to legaly stop this because it is out of control. Sure, bands want their music out there. But when, lets say 500,000 people download it from an illegal downloading source, thats a number lost in record sales that the band is owed for their work. Dont fucking kid yourselves. It is about the money. Its their fucking music so it should be about the money. Let them get paid for the time and effort they put into it.

Agreed.

Jason the Magnificent - 1-7-2008 at 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline

Quote:

Agreed.

90% of bands suck. Stealing albums is the publics last method of inadvertantly protesting the exponential and mediocre growth of the music industry because of the internet.

While the internet is a much more vast entitity than tape trading...I'm sure pound for pound a comparable amount of people dubbed copies of Black Flag albums as people who have downloaded Ignite albums. Did Black Flag complain about it? Maybe...but thats life...

MikeCore - 1-7-2008 at 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason the Magnificent

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline

Quote:

Agreed.

+1

I can record/mix/edit an entire professionally sounding record 'sitting in front of my PC' with software that probably cost me about .05 cents which anybody can get access to if they know how and digitally distribute my music via the interweb for free effectively cutting out the middle man (expensive studio time, contracts, etc.) and just get my music to the people which is the end goal isn't it? I don't have to worry about some label owning my music or have to rely on them to distribute my music. Sure labels are nice for tour/merch support but I'm not going on tour anytime soon or even going to any shows so what ever you say about DLing isn't going to persuade me to stop. It hasn't cheapened my music experience it's made my life ALL the better while saving me millions of $$$ over the years.

XHonusWagnerX - 1-7-2008 at 05:43 PM

I miss LPs.

Siczine.com - 1-7-2008 at 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MyOwnWay
Now. I will admit. I do download songs. if I hear about a band I'll jump on slsk and download a song or two to check it out. To me that is no different than borrowing it from a friend. And I tell you all honestly, there is not a single band on my computer that I downloaded, and l loved, and did NOT buy their disc. To me thats no different than checking a band on myspace or a smaple clip from the FYE website, whatever.

Shit with MySpace you don't even have to download a song to hear/see if you like it.

Six66Mike - 1-7-2008 at 10:51 PM

I download full albums only, and when I like something and keep listening to it, I buy it. I don't buy CD's without hearing the album, so many one hit wonders and bad records these days. You used to buy a whole record and it was stacked start to finish. Now lucky if you like 2 songs from the whole thing.

But the fact is I still buy & go to shows, buy shirts etc even though I don't really have the money to do it.

What I really hate though is people now leeching these lossless FLAC with cue sheets etc and burning them for archival purposes...who's fucking archive? I would archive MY OWN ALBUMS that I have purchased, but I will never get a FLAC as a CD replacement. Mp3 in good quality to try, CD if it's good enough to buy.

MikeCore - 1-8-2008 at 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Six66Mike
I download full albums only, and when I like something and keep listening to it, I buy it. I don't buy CD's without hearing the album, so many one hit wonders and bad records these days. You used to buy a whole record and it was stacked start to finish. Now lucky if you like 2 songs from the whole thing.

But the fact is I still buy & go to shows, buy shirts etc even though I don't really have the money to do it.

What I really hate though is people now leeching these lossless FLAC with cue sheets etc and burning them for archival purposes...who's fucking archive? I would archive MY OWN ALBUMS that I have purchased, but I will never get a FLAC as a CD replacement. Mp3 in good quality to try, CD if it's good enough to buy.

My wife and I went to see The Police a little while back and paid $35 for a shirt :wow:

Six66Mike - 1-8-2008 at 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MikeCore

Quote:

My wife and I went to see The Police a little while back and paid $35 for a shirt :wow:

I know I would own a lot more metal shirts if the Euro bands didn't charge $35 for a T shirt or $50+ for hoodies or long sleeve shirts.

XHonusWagnerX - 1-8-2008 at 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MikeCore

My wife and I went to see The Police a little while back and paid $35 for a shirt :wow:

Merch prices are WAY more out of line than CD prices...

MyOwnWay - 1-8-2008 at 03:19 PM

Those that know me, are aware I love to debate. So nothing I say is to be deemed offensive. I respect everyones opinions. And am cool with those on here (as cool as you can be with people on a messageboard you've never met). But like I said, I love to debate.

Now... I disagree with the "sticking it to the man" theory. We are all aware corporate labels and chain stores charge way more than they should. They backed themselves into a corner on that one. But robbing the artists of their sales isnt a fair protest. For the time people take to download songs they could be writing a letter, sending an email, making a phone call, to chain stores or the corporate labels themselves. When people speak out thats when change comes. You may think its cornyer to take those actions, but thats how I feel about the actions of downloading in that context.

Now to those who say about home recording. Personaly. I think that idea and the follow thru, rules. If more bands could do it, its a very inexpensive way (overall) to get your music out there. The problem with that is not everyone is computer savvy. Nor have the ability to take the time to learn such programs. That idea is only going to apply to talented people who can devote their time to doing it. Which is not the majority of bands. Downloading other peoples hard work that they've already put into it, isnt justifying anything.

Merch prices are absolutely ridiculous. Most times it has nothing to do with the band. Its the merch company doing it (for big acts). For smaller ones, I think they typicaly reasonable. Although I have seen exceptions.

DaveMoral - 1-8-2008 at 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by XHonusWagnerX

Quote:

Originally posted by MikeCore

My wife and I went to see The Police a little while back and paid $35 for a shirt :wow:

Merch prices are WAY more out of line than CD prices...

Which is a direct result of bands getting ass fucked in contracts, with 99.9% of their record sales lining the pockets of label CEOs. Merch is the only way to make money.

XHonusWagnerX - 1-8-2008 at 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral

Quote:

Originally posted by XHonusWagnerX

Quote:

Originally posted by MikeCore

My wife and I went to see The Police a little while back and paid $35 for a shirt :wow:

Merch prices are WAY more out of line than CD prices...

Which is a direct result of bands getting ass fucked in contracts, with 99.9% of their record sales lining the pockets of label CEOs. Merch is the only way to make money.

I agree, but when we all know that a VERY small band can print up 25 shirts and only pay $4 each it means they can sell them for $10 or $15 and make a good profit while still selling them at a fair price. What I dont like and refuse to understand even though its been explained to me is when a shirt is $25... $35 or more! What the fuck makes a hoodie worth $75!?!?

Six66Mike - 1-9-2008 at 03:50 AM

Bands should have a paypal set up so if you don't wanna support their RIAA backed label you can download an illegal copy and donate the band money directly