| Pages:
1
2
3 |
Discipline
* DRUNKEN MONKEY *
Posts: 11900
Registered: 9-8-2004
Location: Over here
Member Is Offline
Mood: The Alley Dukes
|
|
We have all the same drugs that you do.
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
|
|
|
tireironsaint
* BANNED *
Posts: 4299
Registered: 5-14-2003
Location: Colorado
Member Is Offline
Mood: Beltones
|
|
Not to try to jump in on this little back and forth between Dave and Discipline, but as a vegetarian SxE guy who has actually seen Vegan Reich before,
I think I may have a couple cents worth of opinion on the matter.
At the time that Vegan Reich and their whole Hardline thing came about, I hafta admit that I was curious about it. I can't remember and don't care
enough to research the dates to see whether or not I was a vegetarian at that time or not, but I had definitely been exposed to those ideas well
before any of the Hardline bands came into existence. From within the scene, I think bands like Youth Of Today played a MUCH bigger role in spreading
the word to SxE kids that vegetarianism and/or veganism was something to look at. I also read a lot of books that promoted it as a lifestyle choice
that could positively impact the world, by means of lessening the environmental impact of things like commercial ranching and so on, but as far as me
actually making the choice to stop eating meat, no bands played a role in that choice at all. If I had been deciding to change the way I provided
myself with sustenance based solely on what some guy in a HC band said, I can't imagine I would still be doing it 15 years or so later. Much like how
there is no way that if I had gotten sober because I wanted to be in the "cool crowd" of SxE kids I'm sure it would have lasted about as long as the
average SxE kid does nowadays.
Anyway, on to Vegan Reich. I had their 7 inch as well as a few other bands that were on Hardline Records, notably Raid who I thought were the best of
the bunch (probably because they took a huge influence from Integrity who was my favorite band at the time). I never was very impressed by the Vegan
Reich record, but I was interested in finding out why they were so passionate about this particular cause. I was a bit disturbed by the fact that they
felt the need to portray both themselves as well as the meat industry as being in line with Nazism and Fascism. How can you use that type of label and
expect it to be both the positive and negative sides of your argument? That never made sense to me. Of course, it was weird enough that a SxE HC band
was openly admitting to fascist leanings, but to then compare their enemies to the most well known proponents of that sort of political stance while
adopting the word Reich as part of your name....What the fuck was that about?
So of course we had to go see 'em when they came through town. It's been a very long time, but as I recall they played to about ten or fifteen people
and were openly defensive and somewhat paranoid the whole night. They were just as bad live as on record, if not worse and they had some weird hippy
cult vibe going that really clinched the deal as far as I was concerned. All of them wore shorts and flip flops which just did NOT seem to click with
the fascist mentality of their lyrics. Maybe I'm being a little silly throwing their fashion choices into this argument, but it added enough to the
overall sense that these guys were complete nutjobs that I feel it has a place here. I really don't think a single person who was there that night was
swayed to their cause and in fact, I'm pretty damn sure that the few of us who might have been sympathetic to vegetarian/vegan ideas becoming a part
of SxE in general were completely turned off by their approach. I remember looking through all the records they had for sale and being relieved that
they weren't carrying along anything I really wanted as I didn't feel comfortable giving them any more money than what they got from the cover charge
I paid.
I guess my point is that even though I am a vegetarian and am what used to be called SxE (I really hate to group myself in with what that has become
nowadays), plus I was fairly political and outspoken at one time about vegetarianism, I still feel that not only does eating or not eating meat have
NOTHING to do with being SxE, the Hardline movement (especially Vegan Reich) did more harm than good for the goal of furthering veganism amongst the
SxE scene.
Veritas odium parit
|
|
|
ENDERA.x
Posting Freak
Posts: 1378
Registered: 12-2-2003
Location: Toronto
Member Is Offline
Mood: Icepick
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by stateofdisgrace
I don't know if I'd go that far. There are some good bands out there making it memorable for others. I'd say the East Coast is dying. I mean, the
Superbowl is a prime example. We have to rehash bands and get reunions going just get folks to pay attention. The new breed of young kids look at all
this metaled up stuff and call it "hardcore."
No one pays attention to the roots of the music...... |
Exactly.
|
|
|
ENDERA.x
Posting Freak
Posts: 1378
Registered: 12-2-2003
Location: Toronto
Member Is Offline
Mood: Icepick
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by juandiablo
they have dust in canada? |
loool
|
|
|
ENDERA.x
Posting Freak
Posts: 1378
Registered: 12-2-2003
Location: Toronto
Member Is Offline
Mood: Icepick
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
The book of hardcore was officially closed when Sheer Terror played its final shows.
I agree with Jason that most bands are all about a formula these days. I remember starting a thread a little while back about how everybody sounds
the same these days.Back in the day most of the bands sounded different. If a song came on you instantly knew who it was, Black Flag, Bad Brains,
Dead Kennedys, Negative Approach, The Meatmen, Agnostic Front, etc. All the bands tried to have their own sound. When the "youth crew" thing started
I think that's when bands really started trying to sound the same. There were so many bands trying to sound just like YOT, Gorilla Biscuits, etc.
I didn't mind when a bit of metal was added into hardcore because bands like the Cro-Mags and Crumbsuckers played hardcore with a bit of metal
influence. Now it's a lot of bands playing badly written metal with a couple of breakdowns and adding cookie monster vocals and calling it hardcore.
It's not about the music or the scene anymore, it's about who has the most colour vinyl and showing off for cameras so you can post videos of you and
your friends "hardcore dancing." When the fuck did people start calling it "hardcore dancing?" What happened to slam dancing, or evening moshing?
I have actually made it my goal in life that on those rare occasions I go to a show I'm going to kick the shit out of anybody that jumps on stage to
grab the mic and scream "BREAKDOWN!!!" I saw that happen when some shitty band was opening for AF, and I've seen in clips online. That really pisses
me off. All that these little fucks care about is daning for their friends to try and look cool. Don't even get me started on the faggy 2-man dance
routines I've seen some idiots get into.
Kids ask why all the older fans bitch about hardcore today, it's because it has turned into a faggy little trend of the variety that the original
bands were against. Instead of being an outcast and getting beat up for being a punk it's become the cool thing to be. The straight edge trend
really pisses me off too. I've met and known some really cool people who are sXe, including some on this board, and they usually choose to be edge
for personal reasons that are logical. The idea that people choose to be "edge" because it's the cool thing to do pisses me off to no end because
it's not the point. It's supposed to be a personal choice made to better oneself, not because all the "cool" bands are sXe this week and have cool
merch.
Last part of my rant, I always amused by some of the kids at shows I go to. They see me and I see their eyes go wide and they start whispering to
each other, and it's always the same thing, "holy shit a skinhead!!! What should we do." I hate to break it to these little fucks straight from the
latest Warped tour, but without skinheads punk/hardcore/oi/etc. wouldn't be what it is today. |
And yes, very true!!
On the flipside, they see me and think, wtf is he doing here... I look like a fuckin "thug" meanwhile im the promoter of the show without me most
shows wouldn't happen anymore, Toronto is dead.. all the older promoters left who brought the real bands no one is left really. Bands that are around
break up after 2 years. What ever happened to dedication and the love. lol.
they just think you are a nazi they dont know about skins.
Ignorance is all. Its all little kids now, I remember when I was 15 everyone was 20+ at shows - now its the total opposite. All about tight pants,
cool haircuts, dancing to show off, and its so obvious because they dont dance in time with the music at all, they two step all over the place when
its nothing close to a 2 step timing, its like wtf.. it just irritates me to no end. Metalcore is the new 'hardcore'
fuck it..
im sick of boring ass chug chug breakdowns, i hardly dance anymore everything bores me. I'll nod my head here and there, but nothign gets my blood
pumping - what the hell.
|
|
|
upyerbum
Posting Freak
Posts: 3226
Registered: 10-14-2005
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Condemned 84
|
|
FUCK HARDCORE, PLAY BAD ROCK AND ROLL AND NEVER MAKE A DIME, THATS PUNK AS FUCK!!
Well, its this place where nobody works, and the pigs don\'t give you any shit. Everyone smokes weed and gets drunk all day. Its a place where
cunts like me and you can truly take it easy and relax. Know what I mean?
|
|
|
DaveMoral
Posting Freak
Posts: 4334
Registered: 1-24-2006
Location: Ardmore PA
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
Sorry dude, but Vegan Reich were assclowns. |
Regardless of what you think of them, they had a purpose in a climate that was distinctly against people being vegan in the hardcore/punk scene which
explains the uncompromising attitude and more importantly... there hasn't been a band as relevant as they were to making the kind of difference of
attitudes and creating a movement within hardcore/punk along the same lines as Minor Threat. The Hardline EP is the reason that vegan straight edge
exists to this day and has undeniably had as much an impact on the world of hardcore as did Minor Threat and straight edge. |
I'm not trying to start an argument here by any means, but I have to disagree. I don't think veganism has anywhere near the impact of Minor Threat
and sXe. The vegan contingent has never been a big thing, and I don't think it can even be compared to sXe because, while both are lifestyle choices,
they have nothing in common. One is choosing to abstain from intoxicants and substances that can alter ones mind and possibly destroy ones body.
Choosing whether or not to be vegan doesn't have the same impact. Eating steak and eggs with a glass of milk while wearing a leather jacket isn't
going to alter my mind or thinking process. Getting drunk and smoking dust on the other hand, will most definitely affect my mental facilities. One
is choice of living clean,sober, and alert, the other is a choice to not use animal products. I don't see a huge similarity.
The reason I take issue with Vegan Reich is for their statements comparing people eating meat to those who gassed jews in nazi death camps.
Statements like that don't prove devotion to one's cause, they show the complete ignorance of the person speaking it. |
See, though... vegan straight edge was huge all through the 90's until around 98-99. Every other kid was vegan straight edge. Animal activism was
bigger in that period than it has been since, it was a huge impact. Veganism has just as much a positive effect on a person's physical health as does
abstinence from drugs and alcohol. But that's not the point, the point was that the introduction of putting veganism and drug free lifestyle together
by Vegan Reich was the closest thing in hardcore/punk to what Minor Threat did with the idea of a drug free punk rock life. While vegan straight edge
didn't ulitimately have as many adherents as does straight edge it was a huge contributor to the hardcore scene in its hey-day and while on a smaller
scale is comparable and I don't really see any band achieving something similar to Minor Threat but Vegan Reich.
And to be fair, the reference to Auschwitz and Dachau was not to say that meat-eaters are the same as those who gassed Jews but rather the conditions
of Nazi death camps and factory farms, laboratories and slaughterhouses have freightening similarities. In other words, how we treat animals tends to
be how we treat human beings we deem expendable and/or less than human. Vegan Reich certainly wasn't the first to note those types of parallels
either. Many prominent intellectuals have done so in human history. I mean, shit, urban life is so similar to chickens in battery cages is disturbing.
|
|
|
DaveMoral
Posting Freak
Posts: 4334
Registered: 1-24-2006
Location: Ardmore PA
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by tireironsaint
Not to try to jump in on this little back and forth between Dave and Discipline, but as a vegetarian SxE guy who has actually seen Vegan Reich before,
I think I may have a couple cents worth of opinion on the matter.
At the time that Vegan Reich and their whole Hardline thing came about, I hafta admit that I was curious about it. I can't remember and don't care
enough to research the dates to see whether or not I was a vegetarian at that time or not, but I had definitely been exposed to those ideas well
before any of the Hardline bands came into existence. From within the scene, I think bands like Youth Of Today played a MUCH bigger role in spreading
the word to SxE kids that vegetarianism and/or veganism was something to look at. I also read a lot of books that promoted it as a lifestyle choice
that could positively impact the world, by means of lessening the environmental impact of things like commercial ranching and so on, but as far as me
actually making the choice to stop eating meat, no bands played a role in that choice at all. If I had been deciding to change the way I provided
myself with sustenance based solely on what some guy in a HC band said, I can't imagine I would still be doing it 15 years or so later. Much like how
there is no way that if I had gotten sober because I wanted to be in the "cool crowd" of SxE kids I'm sure it would have lasted about as long as the
average SxE kid does nowadays.
Anyway, on to Vegan Reich. I had their 7 inch as well as a few other bands that were on Hardline Records, notably Raid who I thought were the best of
the bunch (probably because they took a huge influence from Integrity who was my favorite band at the time). I never was very impressed by the Vegan
Reich record, but I was interested in finding out why they were so passionate about this particular cause. I was a bit disturbed by the fact that they
felt the need to portray both themselves as well as the meat industry as being in line with Nazism and Fascism. How can you use that type of label and
expect it to be both the positive and negative sides of your argument? That never made sense to me. Of course, it was weird enough that a SxE HC band
was openly admitting to fascist leanings, but to then compare their enemies to the most well known proponents of that sort of political stance while
adopting the word Reich as part of your name....What the fuck was that about?
So of course we had to go see 'em when they came through town. It's been a very long time, but as I recall they played to about ten or fifteen people
and were openly defensive and somewhat paranoid the whole night. They were just as bad live as on record, if not worse and they had some weird hippy
cult vibe going that really clinched the deal as far as I was concerned. All of them wore shorts and flip flops which just did NOT seem to click with
the fascist mentality of their lyrics. Maybe I'm being a little silly throwing their fashion choices into this argument, but it added enough to the
overall sense that these guys were complete nutjobs that I feel it has a place here. I really don't think a single person who was there that night was
swayed to their cause and in fact, I'm pretty damn sure that the few of us who might have been sympathetic to vegetarian/vegan ideas becoming a part
of SxE in general were completely turned off by their approach. I remember looking through all the records they had for sale and being relieved that
they weren't carrying along anything I really wanted as I didn't feel comfortable giving them any more money than what they got from the cover charge
I paid.
I guess my point is that even though I am a vegetarian and am what used to be called SxE (I really hate to group myself in with what that has become
nowadays), plus I was fairly political and outspoken at one time about vegetarianism, I still feel that not only does eating or not eating meat have
NOTHING to do with being SxE, the Hardline movement (especially Vegan Reich) did more harm than good for the goal of furthering veganism amongst the
SxE scene. |
When did YOT first promote vegetarianism? Vegan Reich formed in '87, the Hardline EP came out in '89, then the Wrath of God came out in like '90 or
'91. After that they stopped playing until '99 when the Jihad EP came out. Veganism wasn't foreign to punk, but it was pretty foreign to the hardcore
world. Raid was probably the best, though I'd also vote for Statement being one of the better elements of the Hardline Records group. All those guys
came from the anarcho scene with the exception of Raid, which was a Christian band before that if I remember correctly.
Honestly, the militant vegan stance struck a chord with ALOT of people. How do you explain the success of Earth Crisis? That band owes its existence
to Vegan Reich and they know it. I understand why you may not feel that Vegan Reich had the impact that it did, but it's there. I don't meet many
people that are vegan straight edge that don't love Vegan Reich and all the old Hardline bands, even if they disagree with the Hardline Movement on
certain points. When I came into hardcore it was rare for people to NOT be vegan straight edge where I came from... and that's Indiana. All the kids
doing bands in my tiny little town were vegan sxe, all the kids in Indianapolis were vegan sxe especially the ones doing bands and most of the bands
that were really making a name for themselves at that time had at least one vegan sxe member in them.
Vegan Reich, Raid and the whole Hardline thing set the tone for vegan straight edge and all the bands that came out during that whole thing until Good
Clean Fun came along. Bands were even cropping up and people were becoming vegan straight edge just to show that you didn't have to be like
Hardliners. I don't know, maybe you ignored it because you didn't like the sounds and the people... but it was undeniably huge. Did Minor Threat or
any of the youth crew bands ever get national news coverage? Earth Crisis and vegan straight edge did... in both positive and negative lights.
Saint, your description of the Vegan Reich show you went to sounds just like Sean Reich. He's a good friend of mine and my kung fu teacher. The dude
is way laid back, I mean c'mon he grew on the beaches of SoCal. He's a surfer and always has been. But he's got a serious strain of anarcho-radicalism
and in those days that's what he thought was important. But what do you expect from pissed of anarchist teenagers? What's so different between Vegan
Reich and Conflict or Crass other than taking cues from the Cro-Mags really?
Also, the word "reich" is not the sole property of the Nazi regime. It's a German word that means "country" or "nation" and even "empire" and was used
by the Weimar Republic right before the rise of Hilter. "Vegan Reich" would translate to "Vegan territory" or "Vegan country" etc. It doesn't have to
be linked to fascism, and Vegan Reich certainly weren't fascists. That would require a far right form of government with a dictatorship and strong
state and VR was always anarchist and the Hardline Movement was decentralized to a fault.
|
|
|
MikeCore
Senior Member
Posts: 546
Registered: 1-9-2007
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBadVibes
i like real hardcore punk bands
the shit thats called hardcore is metal which is fine but it aint my thing at all
when hardcore stopped being punk, thats when i lost all interest |
I'm right with ya. I'm only 31 years old and I didn't start listening to HC till early '89 so I caught the tail end of I guess what people call the
3rd wave of HC. To me HC is Minor Threat, YOT, BOLD, Judge, COS, SOIA(Early stuff), Turning Point, etc., and I still listen to all of those bands and
I probably always will. Thrash has always been a part of HC but when you sound like Pantera or Slayer and try to call yourself a HC band it's just
laughable to me. I'm not saying you can't but to each his own. I love metal but I don't call it HC. When I say Metal I mean bands like Napalm
Death, Slayer, Deicide, Cannibal Corpse, etc.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3 |
|
![[*]](images/thorp/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
