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Siczine.com
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It's funny that in this thread that most posts seem to assume (or at least state) that all mexicans/illegals do is work on farms. Last time I checked
they are huge in the construction field (and obviously landscaping). They are the highest paying jobs for a man without a college degree. And I can
tell you from first hand experience, while most illegals are heralded as being the hardest workers, and in some cases that might be true, but that
doesn't make them the smartest or most effecient workers. I mean when you have to spend an extra 5 minutes to explain something that takes 2 seconds
to an American. Shit I've seen roofing companies hire Mexicans and the LEGALS had to hold up signs and shit to communicate.
I know for a fact that there are AMERICANS that would die to have many of these constuction jobs, and I've seen many friends fired because of cheaper
illegal labor in the construction field, whether it be masonry work, roofing, carpentry, flooring, sheetrock, etc,.
And Tire hit the nail on the head: "By hiring illegals to do those jobs and refusing to pay a decent wage to ANYONE for doing that job, they create
that self-fulfilling prophecy that says that Americans won't do those jobs."
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DaveMoral
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The irony is... the so-called "illegals" prove day-in day-out that the wages they are paid ARE livable. They just don't have the extravagant tastes
that Americans do. Interesting.
This is a heated debate and I tire of the right wing attitudes thrown about when this shit pops off. How can you fault anyone for doing exactly what
has caused the human species to propogate and grow? How can you fault people for doing precisely what is natural, migrate where there are greater
resources? Shit, can you blame people? Do you have any idea what kind of hoops you have to jump through in order to migrate legally? Shit... people
are starving and dying, and yet they are kept queued up for YEARS and allowed to starve and die. Of course people are going to cross borders,
especially when historically those borders were as permeable as it gets.
They weren't treated as more concrete until the Depression anyways, and that was just convenient white scapegoating onto non-white people. It was no
different than what those same California whites ended up doing to the Okies when they started migrating out of the dust bowl! The current favorite
scapegoat is the Mexican illegal immigrant(no one, of course, is up in arms about illegal Irish or German immigrants), wait until the stock market
crashes again... see how your fellow Americans are treated by the haves.
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thedog
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
The current favorite scapegoat is the Mexican illegal immigrant(no one, of course, is up in arms about illegal Irish or German immigrants)
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According to a Pew Hispanic Center report, Mexicans make up about 57 percent of the illegal immigrants with another 24 percent coming from Central
American and South American countries, approximately 9 percent from Asia, 6 percent from Europe and Canada, with the remaining 4 percent from the rest
of the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_Unit...
\"thank you very little\"
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clevohardcore
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Six66Mike
| Quote: | Originally posted by clevohardcore
| Quote: | Originally posted by Six66Mike
12 million Mexicans doing the jobs at really low wages that Americans don't want to do, yeah kick em out. Pick your own crops.
I don't these people should be kicked out when they shouldn't have been let in to begin with. The politics and policing of the border was shit, and
now decades later you want to try to fix it & kick everyone out who got in because you were asleep at the wheel.
Deal with the ones you got, the ones who have been working & contributing for the past 10-20 years, and tighten up now for the future. Don't punish
those who are active members of society just because you fucked up in the first place. |
^^^^^^^ I hate that excuse. People here will pick those crops man. Thats ignorant bullshit from the company heads that want to pay the next to nothing
wages. They want maximum profit for no cost. Many people around here would jump at those jobs. Don't fool yourself bro. |
Americans won't do the jobs at the wages they love to pay. I don't even think its legal for Americans to get paid that little.
Canadian farms bring up Mexicans & Jamaicans in the summer to harvest all sorts of crops because there is a lack of workers willing to do the hard
work in the region. And this is at legal wages on par with fast food employees and shit like that. |
^^^^^^^^^ that is my point. those jobs could pay better and many many Americans would jump at them. The fact that our system allows companies to
illegally hire them is outrageous. the companies do not want to take from their profits so they claim a bullshit excuse that Americans would not want
to work the jobs. Its bullshit lies. I know plenty of Americans who work shitty jobs for low wages and there lives are in serious danger for doing so.
Each aspect of the soul has it's own part to play, but the ideal is harmonious agreement with reason and control.
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clevohardcore
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Kraft can pay many workers 12 an hour with healthcare to pick and manufactuer tomatoes(ketchup) and pickles(relish) over the course of the year. Heinz
does not want ot pay that so they claim no American wants to do this job for $7 an hour. well thats true, but pay a little better and plenty of people
would do it.
Of course the next arguement is hirer prices at the supermarket. Well it doesn't have to be, but it would if the company heads had to hire Americans.
Problem is steeper prices mean less people to buy Relish and Ketchup. And who wants to mess with the stock market right now? N one so the easy fix is
bring Mexicans in the country during growing seasons and have debates on if its wrong or not. All the while make record profits and take over smaller
companies that manufacturer the same product. Gain more control and have more power. NOw you have no choice and what happens next? Well eventually the
cheap wages seem even more desireable now because you really need an extra job just to buy food to put on the table for your family. Sound familiar? I
have 1 son and my wife and I are broke after we buy groceries. Many times I am charging it to get what we need.
Each aspect of the soul has it's own part to play, but the ideal is harmonious agreement with reason and control.
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Siczine.com
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And if they increased the wages for Americans to do the jobs, that does not mean you have to raise the prices at the market like Steve said. All you
would be doing is cutting into the extravagantly high living standards of the top tier.
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clevohardcore
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Siczine.com
And if they increased the wages for Americans to do the jobs, that does not mean you have to raise the prices at the market like Steve said. All you
would be doing is cutting into the extravagantly high living standards of the top tier. |
^^^^^^^^^^ DUDE! that is exactly what I am saying. They are making highway robbery because of investors and owners wanting maximum profit no matter
what the costs.
Each aspect of the soul has it's own part to play, but the ideal is harmonious agreement with reason and control.
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clevohardcore
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It needs to end. No matter how you view this topis the bottom line it we are discussing and making it a issue to make it seem to have an impossible
solution. they create the issue and expect us to sit by and continue to allow it to happen. We are idle and they are moving forward with maximum
dollar.
Each aspect of the soul has it's own part to play, but the ideal is harmonious agreement with reason and control.
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clevohardcore
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The point is we are no different than the ones trying to cross the border. the only diffenrece is it may be easier for us to social security when we
get older. Even that is said to be non-existent after the baby boomers.
Each aspect of the soul has it's own part to play, but the ideal is harmonious agreement with reason and control.
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defstarsteve
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good luck getting ceo's and boards of directors to take any kind of paycut, share holders will not hear of a lower profit margin...
yeah fuck it let's bomb wall street, and priviize ownership of businesses again and then you might see some change
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Siczine.com
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I don't think anyone here is trying to pull a Fight Club but things need to change.
Why should America's middle class and below suffer because we have to undertake the burden of fixing other countries problems. Of the top
industralized nations we have one of the highest poverty rates. And unlike many of the industralized European countries, we do not have universal
health care or free higher education.
If you look up the stats, America isn't number one in any category (health care, survival of newborns, literacy, etc,.) except for having the most
nuclear weapons. We need to fix ourselves well before fixing the problems of other countries. Mexico and the other South American countries need to
take accountability for the situations they've created, not us.
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Discipline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
The irony is... the so-called "illegals" prove day-in day-out that the wages they are paid ARE livable. They just don't have the extravagant tastes
that Americans do. Interesting.
This is a heated debate and I tire of the right wing attitudes thrown about when this shit pops off. How can you fault anyone for doing exactly what
has caused the human species to propogate and grow? How can you fault people for doing precisely what is natural, migrate where there are greater
resources? Shit, can you blame people? Do you have any idea what kind of hoops you have to jump through in order to migrate legally? Shit... people
are starving and dying, and yet they are kept queued up for YEARS and allowed to starve and die. Of course people are going to cross borders,
especially when historically those borders were as permeable as it gets.
They weren't treated as more concrete until the Depression anyways, and that was just convenient white scapegoating onto non-white people. It was no
different than what those same California whites ended up doing to the Okies when they started migrating out of the dust bowl! The current favorite
scapegoat is the Mexican illegal immigrant(no one, of course, is up in arms about illegal Irish or German immigrants), wait until the stock market
crashes again... see how your fellow Americans are treated by the haves. |
If you don't mind Dave, I would like to hear your response specifically to my post near the bottom of the second page.
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
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Muttley
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| Quote: | Originally posted by tireironsaint
That's the point though, NOBODY should be doing those jobs for that pay. It's illegal to pay that little for a reason. By hiring illegals to
do those jobs and refusing to pay a decent wage to ANYONE for doing that job, they create that self-fulfilling prophecy that says that Americans won't
do those jobs. We CAN'T do those jobs for that amount of money, therefore those jobs are being stolen from legal workers. Are they desirable
jobs? No, but if they paid legal wages I can guarantee you that legal workers would be signing up for them. |
Emphasis added by me because it's on fucking point.
And by the way, this mentality is why people continue to beg for change on streetcorners in big cities. The average person on a street corner begging
for change makes more money than a starting wage at a retail job.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Siczine.com
And if they increased the wages for Americans to do the jobs, that does not mean you have to raise the prices at the market like Steve said. All you
would be doing is cutting into the extravagantly high living standards of the top tier. |
Exactly. And this whole thing about extravagance goes for many industries. Why do you think the music industry is tanking? Less money to be made but
the top guys refuse to take paycuts. It's gonna be armageddon in the next five years.
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random
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Couple of quick points since I got bored with some of the arguments and skimmed over some comments...
1) Regarding farmworkers. Believe it or not, you don't have to pay farmworkers or domestic servants the federal minimum wage. They're excluded from
most labor law, including the Fair Labor Standards Act. Farmworkers are typically paid piece-rate at rates that are expected to be below minimum
wage. It's legal. An there really aren't too many Americans (or even people with green cards) who will work at that rate.
Perhaps this will sound a bit too "P.C." to some, but the main reason for this is because legislation passed many decades ago (like FLSA) was done at
a time when unions were both very protectionist and pretty racist (at least the AFL, since we're even talking about before the CIO existed, much less
before they merged in '55). At that time, it was mostly blacks doing farm work and domestic servant jobs. The convenient compromise between agitated
unions and politicians was to satisfy the union leaders while selling out the black workers. So now you have the present situation.
2) Seems like everyone wants to blame the workers more than the people who hire them. Some of you put some blame on the corporations (and small
companies) hiring illegals, but the majority is put on workers. Bottom line - absolute bottom fucking line - is that they won't come if there aren't
jobs. Clamp down on legitimate businesses who are hiring illegals, and clamp down hard. Revoke business licenses. Criminal charges and jail time
for hiring illegals. Long-term, federal conspiracy charges for those at the top. That is ABSOLUTELY the ONLY way you'll see things change. It's
like drugs... as long as people want them, they'll make their way in, no matter what (and no matter how hard you try to keep them out)... the profit
motive is too great. Eliminate demand, and you eliminate the supply.
3) Some people do come and exploit the system, but it's a gross exaggeration to say it's most of the illegals. As for US citizens... we definitely
exploit the welfare system, whether it's welfare in the traditional sense or in the "corporate welfare" sense.
4) If you go to a day labor agency, you pay taxes no matter what. The same isn't true for guys standing on a street corner or in the Home Depot
parking lot. But going through an agency, you pay taxes.
5) There have actually been a few studies about the impact of illegals on Social Security (SS). Interestingly, there are many (many) illegals here
using "false" (i.e. someone else's) SS# to gain employment. They are paying into SS. But the really interesting part is that they don't collect or
claim on their with-holdings, so that just rolls into our current system, making it more sustainable (i.e. it'll take longer for the SS system to go
totally bankrupt due to the fact that we have so many illegals paying into the system who can never claim benefits).
None of this is to excuse illegal behavior, but I'm fucking tired of bullshit arguments by politicians that don't address the real issue. You want
illegal immigration to end? Make it so that nobody takes the risk to hire them. That's the only viable option. Some will say that's
"anti-capitalist" or "anti-business", but those are bullshit arguments. Capitalism works only if the rule of law (and therefore the rules of the
market) are enforced. As long as businesses have an incentive to cheat (i.e. break the law and hire illegals), they will. Destroy the incentive to
cheat, and you'll end the problem. Nothing else will work.
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Six66Mike
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I think the thread should be locked now, random hit it home with that last post lol.
A lot of people ask me what kind of music I like. I love "soul music". My "soul music" isn’t a style, genre or niche. It’s music that is genuine. It’s
a painful lyric, a dirty bassline, it’s a harrowing vocal, it’s feedback, it’s an anthem, it’s a love song, it’s anarchy. I’ve got my personal
favourites but in the end it doesn’t matter who or where it comes from... so long as it’s good and it's real.
- Paul Morris, music director at 97.7 HTZ-FM
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random
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Six66Mike
I think the thread should be locked now, random hit it home with that last post lol. |
You'd love my critique of the war in Iraq and that "debate" among politicians. 
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DaveMoral
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
It's not fucking amnesty you retards. Dude's have to GO BACK to their country and apply for citizenship but get bumped up the list. Jesus Christ you'd
think they were just handing out citizenship or something.
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Here is my concern with this. People who immigrate legally often have to wait years before they are allowed to move here, and have to go through a
lot of bullshit. If these illegals are sent back to their home countries to apply, bumping them up the list is rewarding them for breaking the law.
I've said it before, I have no problem with LEGAL immigration, but I take issue with ILLEGAL immigrants. People seem to think they have the right to
illegally enter the US and Canada simply because life is better here, and there is more opportunity to succeed. We are not one happy world. We have
borders and laws for a reason, and should enforce them. I'm completely against sending illegals home to apply for citizenship, as they've shown a
complete disregard for several laws. I'm in favour of shipping them home and banning them from ever returning. Contrary to what many of them have
stated in the news, they DON"T have the right to earn a living here and send money home to their families, for the simple reason that they don't have
the right to be here in the first place.
(Look, no name calling!! ) |
You wanted my response, here it is. The system is broken. You can't blame people for doing what is natural to the species and migrating where there
are greater resources and greater means to support you and your's. Legal and illegal means shit to people trying to survive. These people are already
here, and rather than treating them like expendables they should be treated like human beings and given their due... especially from a government and
society that likes to take the moral high ground on humanitarianism.
Fact of the matter is, the problem is not in the people moving all over trying to make their way in the world... the problem is corperate America. Not
only have they created the problem here, but for the most part they've created the problems in the home countries of folks who are fleeing a bad
situation in Mexico and Central and South America. Not to mention various other parts of the world. Look at the demand for corn these days and all the
products it's used for, motherfuckers in Mexico can't afford to buy the corn they use as a staple of their diet. Corn is for them like rice is to
Asians or potatoes to Americans.
It's such a sham when people pull the "working class" pride bit at the expense of other sectors of the working class. It's nothing short of racism and
xenophobia, no matter how you try to slice it. Talk about legality, and you tell me. Barely survive, if at all, while waiting years to deal with legal
red tape or hop a small fence on an imaginary border and really start to come up? It's like the drug analogy. Work your ass off at 2 or 3 jobs and get
treated like shit making pennies and have the moral honor of hard work, OR sling a little dope on the street corner or even just deliver some dope for
a dealer and make hundreds and thousands in very short order? Which do you think people are going to find more appealing in a society that values
wealth and gadgetry over the moral value of a hard day's work?
That and everything random and steve have said.
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Discipline
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So you believe that people should be rewarded for breaking the law?
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
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DaveMoral
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In this case? Yeah, I don't really mind. Especially when it's big business that should be taken to task rather than the people trying to survive.
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JawnDiablo
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Born In East LA was a great movie.....
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Siczine.com
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
It's not fucking amnesty you retards. Dude's have to GO BACK to their country and apply for citizenship but get bumped up the list. Jesus Christ you'd
think they were just handing out citizenship or something.
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Here is my concern with this. People who immigrate legally often have to wait years before they are allowed to move here, and have to go through a
lot of bullshit. If these illegals are sent back to their home countries to apply, bumping them up the list is rewarding them for breaking the law.
I've said it before, I have no problem with LEGAL immigration, but I take issue with ILLEGAL immigrants. People seem to think they have the right to
illegally enter the US and Canada simply because life is better here, and there is more opportunity to succeed. We are not one happy world. We have
borders and laws for a reason, and should enforce them. I'm completely against sending illegals home to apply for citizenship, as they've shown a
complete disregard for several laws. I'm in favour of shipping them home and banning them from ever returning. Contrary to what many of them have
stated in the news, they DON"T have the right to earn a living here and send money home to their families, for the simple reason that they don't have
the right to be here in the first place.
(Look, no name calling!!) |
You wanted my response, here it is. The system is broken. You can't blame people for doing what is natural to the species and migrating where there
are greater resources and greater means to support you and your's. Legal and illegal means shit to people trying to survive. These people are already
here, and rather than treating them like expendables they should be treated like human beings and given their due... especially from a government and
society that likes to take the moral high ground on humanitarianism.
Fact of the matter is, the problem is not in the people moving all over trying to make their way in the world... the problem is corperate America. Not
only have they created the problem here, but for the most part they've created the problems in the home countries of folks who are fleeing a bad
situation in Mexico and Central and South America. Not to mention various other parts of the world. Look at the demand for corn these days and all the
products it's used for, motherfuckers in Mexico can't afford to buy the corn they use as a staple of their diet. Corn is for them like rice is to
Asians or potatoes to Americans.
It's like the drug analogy. Work your ass off at 2 or 3 jobs and get treated like shit making pennies and have the moral honor of hard work, OR sling
a little dope on the street corner or even just deliver some dope for a dealer and make hundreds and thousands in very short order? Which do you think
people are going to find more appealing in a society that values wealth and gadgetry over the moral value of a hard day's work?
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Way to compare hopping the boarder to drug dealing. Both are illegal and easy way outs. So pretty much you're saying it's fine for illegals to do
the wrong thing if they can benefit from it. Then how can you complain about what corporate America is doing or better yet, Americans who do abuse
the welfare system? It seems to me you're suggesting that two wrongs make a right. Yeah that's reallllllly going to fix the big problem here.
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JawnDiablo
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Sometimes when I go to the wawa in my neighborhood I am amazed by how many Mexicans fit into a van. I mean these guys should be contortionists in the
circus or something. To fit all them in there with the lawnmowers and shit.....damn!
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upyerbum
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| Quote: | Originally posted by random
Seems like everyone wants to blame the workers more than the people who hire them. |
Exactly.
Well, its this place where nobody works, and the pigs don\'t give you any shit. Everyone smokes weed and gets drunk all day. Its a place where
cunts like me and you can truly take it easy and relax. Know what I mean?
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Siczine.com
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I think the majority of the people in this thread are not blaming the illegals alone, though you cannot deny they are a part of the problem. It's not
hard to see that the government and the officials that are running it are a joke. And let me not forget about the greed mongers that head these
modern day slave institutions, because they are the ones pulling the politicians strings. Because in a capitalistic country such ours, at the end of
the day, it's money that really counts.
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DaveMoral
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Again, how can you blame people for trying to survive. I'm not saying hopping the border is exactly like drug dealing, I'm saying the survival aspect
of it is similar. Border hopping, however, is not an "easy way out" particularly when many of the jobs are dangerous, the act of crossing is
dangerous, and every day is lived with the possibility of deportation. Do you even have any idea what people go through to get here? Shit dude... it's
not safe, it's not pretty and lots of people die doing it. Either by way of Mexican gangs who control trains that are hopped, or by racist vigilante
groups patrolling the border.
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