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To them it's apparently easier than trying to get a green card, so that's an easy way out. If it's so dangerous and so many people die then why
fucking do it? To survive? I'd assume more people die in Mexico from trying to cross the boarder than from starvation if they would've stayed in
their own country.
And again I will reiterate what I already stated, it's Mexico's job to take care of its citizens, not ours. If we had none our countrymen in poverty
and our fucking veterans taken care of and everything was peachy keen here, then we could do something. We need to fix ourselves.
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tireironsaint
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| Quote: | Originally posted by random
Couple of quick points since I got bored with some of the arguments and skimmed over some comments...
1) Regarding farmworkers. Believe it or not, you don't have to pay farmworkers or domestic servants the federal minimum wage. They're excluded from
most labor law, including the Fair Labor Standards Act. Farmworkers are typically paid piece-rate at rates that are expected to be below minimum
wage. It's legal. An there really aren't too many Americans (or even people with green cards) who will work at that rate.
Perhaps this will sound a bit too "P.C." to some, but the main reason for this is because legislation passed many decades ago (like FLSA) was done at
a time when unions were both very protectionist and pretty racist (at least the AFL, since we're even talking about before the CIO existed, much less
before they merged in '55). At that time, it was mostly blacks doing farm work and domestic servant jobs. The convenient compromise between agitated
unions and politicians was to satisfy the union leaders while selling out the black workers. So now you have the present situation.
2) Seems like everyone wants to blame the workers more than the people who hire them. Some of you put some blame on the corporations (and small
companies) hiring illegals, but the majority is put on workers. Bottom line - absolute bottom fucking line - is that they won't come if there aren't
jobs. Clamp down on legitimate businesses who are hiring illegals, and clamp down hard. Revoke business licenses. Criminal charges and jail time
for hiring illegals. Long-term, federal conspiracy charges for those at the top. That is ABSOLUTELY the ONLY way you'll see things change. It's
like drugs... as long as people want them, they'll make their way in, no matter what (and no matter how hard you try to keep them out)... the profit
motive is too great. Eliminate demand, and you eliminate the supply.
3) Some people do come and exploit the system, but it's a gross exaggeration to say it's most of the illegals. As for US citizens... we definitely
exploit the welfare system, whether it's welfare in the traditional sense or in the "corporate welfare" sense.
4) If you go to a day labor agency, you pay taxes no matter what. The same isn't true for guys standing on a street corner or in the Home Depot
parking lot. But going through an agency, you pay taxes.
5) There have actually been a few studies about the impact of illegals on Social Security (SS). Interestingly, there are many (many) illegals here
using "false" (i.e. someone else's) SS# to gain employment. They are paying into SS. But the really interesting part is that they don't collect or
claim on their with-holdings, so that just rolls into our current system, making it more sustainable (i.e. it'll take longer for the SS system to go
totally bankrupt due to the fact that we have so many illegals paying into the system who can never claim benefits).
None of this is to excuse illegal behavior, but I'm fucking tired of bullshit arguments by politicians that don't address the real issue. You want
illegal immigration to end? Make it so that nobody takes the risk to hire them. That's the only viable option. Some will say that's
"anti-capitalist" or "anti-business", but those are bullshit arguments. Capitalism works only if the rule of law (and therefore the rules of the
market) are enforced. As long as businesses have an incentive to cheat (i.e. break the law and hire illegals), they will. Destroy the incentive to
cheat, and you'll end the problem. Nothing else will work. |
While I do agree with more of what you said here than you seem to assume I would, I do have a couple of points of contention with this statement.
I can't speak for anyone else's meanings here, but none of the jobs I was actually talking about are farm jobs. I've never known anyone who was a
farmworker and do not claim to speak for anyone who is one. I do, however, know several people who are tradesmen and work in various position in the
construction field. As far as I can tell, it is still quite illegal to pay those people anything below the minimum wage. A lot of effort has been put
into learning the skills that help those tradesmen advance and yet they are rapidly losing ground to unskilled workers who are willing to do whatever
is asked of them, simply because they are here illegally and so are willing to work for much lower pay. That's not a racist assumption, nor is it
untrue.
I certainly think the real root of this problem lies in a system that happily allows this cycle to continue because of the money it puts in the bosses
pockets and I went into detail earlier about my position on that, but I'm guessing you skimmed over that. I do disagree that the only way to stop this
is to clamp down on the businesses hiring illegals. I agree that it needs to be done and that it would have a large impact, but as long as people are
willing to break the law to make more money, they will still try to get around that. I think that it needs to be addressed on both sides, the
employers as well as the illegals, it's not viable to look at this as an "either or" situation.
As for exploiting the system, I think of things like making sure a child is born in this country in order for that child to get automatic citizenship
is exploiting it. I think that taking the jobs of legal citizens and decreasing the average pay of an industry is exploiting the system. I see sending
the money earned in this country out of it and thereby breaking the cycle that supports a community as exploiting it. When I think of welfare being
exploited, I'm not limiting that to things like ripping off the food stamp program and that sort of thing, I'm thinking about communities losing out
because the economy is going down the shitter for a variety of reasons.
Day labor agencies are incredibly easy to exploit, most people hiring laborers are more than happy to say they fired the laborers they hired through
the agency in order to pay the laborer directly and under the table to circumvent anybody paying taxes. Just because the agencies are set up to make
sure taxes are paid doesn't mean it happens that way. We're talking about agencies who are dealing with people who are already breaking the law just
by being here, so it's not like it's all above board.
Veritas odium parit
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tireironsaint
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
the so-called "illegals" |
And that's another thing that drives me nuts, how can anyone take issue with calling these people ILLEGALS? That's what they are, it's not a racist
term, it's valid no matter the ethnicity or country of origin, they came here illegally thus they ARE illegal immigrants.
Veritas odium parit
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DaveMoral
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^The fact that it sort of denigrates their basic humanity, first of all.
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tireironsaint
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
This is a heated debate and I tire of the right wing attitudes thrown about when this shit pops off. How can you fault anyone for doing exactly what
has caused the human species to propogate and grow? How can you fault people for doing precisely what is natural, migrate where there are greater
resources? Shit, can you blame people? Do you have any idea what kind of hoops you have to jump through in order to migrate legally? Shit... people
are starving and dying, and yet they are kept queued up for YEARS and allowed to starve and die. Of course people are going to cross borders,
especially when historically those borders were as permeable as it gets.
They weren't treated as more concrete until the Depression anyways, and that was just convenient white scapegoating onto non-white people. It was no
different than what those same California whites ended up doing to the Okies when they started migrating out of the dust bowl! The current favorite
scapegoat is the Mexican illegal immigrant(no one, of course, is up in arms about illegal Irish or German immigrants), wait until the stock market
crashes again... see how your fellow Americans are treated by the haves. |
I can fault people for taking the opportunities of others by illegal means just like I fault any other thieves taking anything from someone. I can
fault people for breaking valid laws and in so doing bringing the economy down to a level where everyone aside from the rich keep falling farther and
farther behind. When there is a higher percentage of Americans living below the poverty line every year and we have people breaking the law and
driving wages down in the process, I hold them accountable. Of course, I hold the businesses that hire them responsible for hiring them, but when many
illegals are also identity thieves who are using another person's identity to gain employment, it can make it more difficult to tell whether or not
the employer knows the status of a hire. Granted, most do know and let it slide because it's easy to claim ignorance and there's nothing more than a
slap on the wrist involved if they're caught anyway.
As was already pointed out by someone in this thread, illegals other than Mexicans and/or South Americans are a much smaller percentage of the total
immigrant population. Does that excuse them? Fuck no, illegal is illegal, it just doesn't get talked about as much because it isn't nearly as big a
situation as it is with Mexican and South American immigrants.
Veritas odium parit
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tireironsaint
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
^The fact that it sort of denigrates their basic humanity, first of all. |
You mean like calling someone who
steals from someone else a thief? Would you prefer that name to illegal? They're both descriptive names for the same people. Of course the name is
seen as negative, it's in regard to a negative action taken by these people.
Veritas odium parit
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DaveMoral
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| Quote: | Originally posted by tireironsaint
| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
This is a heated debate and I tire of the right wing attitudes thrown about when this shit pops off. How can you fault anyone for doing exactly what
has caused the human species to propogate and grow? How can you fault people for doing precisely what is natural, migrate where there are greater
resources? Shit, can you blame people? Do you have any idea what kind of hoops you have to jump through in order to migrate legally? Shit... people
are starving and dying, and yet they are kept queued up for YEARS and allowed to starve and die. Of course people are going to cross borders,
especially when historically those borders were as permeable as it gets.
They weren't treated as more concrete until the Depression anyways, and that was just convenient white scapegoating onto non-white people. It was no
different than what those same California whites ended up doing to the Okies when they started migrating out of the dust bowl! The current favorite
scapegoat is the Mexican illegal immigrant(no one, of course, is up in arms about illegal Irish or German immigrants), wait until the stock market
crashes again... see how your fellow Americans are treated by the haves. |
I can fault people for taking the opportunities of others by illegal means just like I fault any other thieves taking anything from someone. I can
fault people for breaking valid laws and in so doing bringing the economy down to a level where everyone aside from the rich keep falling farther and
farther behind. When there is a higher percentage of Americans living below the poverty line every year and we have people breaking the law and
driving wages down in the process, I hold them accountable. Of course, I hold the businesses that hire them responsible for hiring them, but when many
illegals are also identity thieves who are using another person's identity to gain employment, it can make it more difficult to tell whether or not
the employer knows the status of a hire. Granted, most do know and let it slide because it's easy to claim ignorance and there's nothing more than a
slap on the wrist involved if they're caught anyway.
As was already pointed out by someone in this thread, illegals other than Mexicans and/or South Americans are a much smaller percentage of the total
immigrant population. Does that excuse them? Fuck no, illegal is illegal, it just doesn't get talked about as much because it isn't nearly as big a
situation as it is with Mexican and South American immigrants. |
You know what's funny about most of what you said here... most economists disagree with you.
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tireironsaint
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
It's such a sham when people pull the "working class" pride bit at the expense of other sectors of the working class. It's nothing short of racism and
xenophobia, no matter how you try to slice it. Talk about legality, and you tell me. Barely survive, if at all, while waiting years to deal with legal
red tape or hop a small fence on an imaginary border and really start to come up? It's like the drug analogy. Work your ass off at 2 or 3 jobs and get
treated like shit making pennies and have the moral honor of hard work, OR sling a little dope on the street corner or even just deliver some dope for
a dealer and make hundreds and thousands in very short order? Which do you think people are going to find more appealing in a society that values
wealth and gadgetry over the moral value of a hard day's work?
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It's racist and xenophobic to call out people for stealing? That's a load of shit. A very large and very smelly load of shit. As I've said a few times
already, the actions of illegal immigrants is and has been driving the Nation's economy down further every year. I don't know about you, but where I
live the average person is working two or more jobs just to make ends meet. I do it, most of my friends do it, it's an expected thing because it's
just not possible to live on a single income due to rising costs and shrinking wages. Is that ENTIRELY due to illegal workers? Of course not, but it's
a good portion of the problem.
Veritas odium parit
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tireironsaint
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
most economists disagree with you. |
Feel free to back that up and to clarify what exactly it is in there
that you're referring to.
Veritas odium parit
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Siczine.com
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Yeah economists would say the economy is doing better because the rich get richer but that doesn't help the middle class, the lower middle class or
the poor. So that's bullshit.
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DaveMoral
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Well, you're scapegoating the immigrant population and not taking into account other factors. Truth is, our economy is moving increasingly away from a
manufacturing based economy with those jobs outsourced overseas where cheaper labor means cheaper prices for the American consumer. That's not
something most of us is willing to part with. So we are moving towards a service based workforce... and quite frankly, just packing up 12 million
people that make up a significant numbers in service based jobs is going to do some damage. Ultimately prices WILL rise if "natives" try to get those
jobs... if they are even willing... because Lord knows most aren't willing to work for minimum wage.
The tax on the welfare system is hugely overstated too.
More importantly, packing up and shipping off people isn't going to do anything because if there's nothing else we've learned is that when someone
gets deported they work their way back into the country illegally and start the process again. Tougher enforcement doesn't work because people are
smarter than the system and figure it out, plus zeal for enforcement gradually lessens. The proposed guest worker program is literally the only thing
that has precedent in the nation's history. Check out the Bracero Program from 1942 to 1964. During its run there was a dramatic decrease in illegal immigration. It had its failings, but those sorts of
kinks can be hammered out with a new bill.
Thing is, you've got to figure out something to deal with 12 million people already here... many already contributing far more to the economy than
they are taking from it. Most of which have been here for more than a decade. It's not as clear cut as granting "amnesty" or deportation.
Quite frankly I think getting so hung up on "the law" that we throw out humanitarian concern and compassion is far more detrimental to our country
than providing a means for legalization and a wider reaching guest worker program.
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tireironsaint
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
Well, you're scapegoating the immigrant population and not taking into account other factors. Truth is, our economy is moving increasingly away from a
manufacturing based economy with those jobs outsourced overseas where cheaper labor means cheaper prices for the American consumer. That's not
something most of us is willing to part with. So we are moving towards a service based workforce... and quite frankly, just packing up 12 million
people that make up a significant numbers in service based jobs is going to do some damage. Ultimately prices WILL rise if "natives" try to get those
jobs... if they are even willing... because Lord knows most aren't willing to work for minimum wage.
The tax on the welfare system is hugely overstated too.
More importantly, packing up and shipping off people isn't going to do anything because if there's nothing else we've learned is that when someone
gets deported they work their way back into the country illegally and start the process again. Tougher enforcement doesn't work because people are
smarter than the system and figure it out, plus zeal for enforcement gradually lessens. The proposed guest worker program is literally the only thing
that has precedent in the nation's history. Check out the Bracero Program from 1942 to 1964. During its run there was a dramatic decrease in illegal immigration. It had its failings, but those sorts of
kinks can be hammered out with a new bill.
Thing is, you've got to figure out something to deal with 12 million people already here... many already contributing far more to the economy than
they are taking from it. Most of which have been here for more than a decade. It's not as clear cut as granting "amnesty" or deportation.
Quite frankly I think getting so hung up on "the law" that we throw out humanitarian concern and compassion is far more detrimental to our country
than providing a means for legalization and a wider reaching guest worker program. |
Hmm, you start off this statement with an absolute untruth. As we've already been over a few times, I'm addressing another factor, that being the
employers and the system that encourages the cycle for the rich. There's no scapegoating going on in anything I've said, I'm not saying the illegals
caused the problem, just that what they are doing is having a negative impact on legal citizens. As for jobs in the manufacturing industry, your
statement here is the first time that's entered the discussion in this thread, so you can throw it right out as relevant. Nobody here has claimed that
illegals have caused that shift away from U.S. manufacturing. I do agree that we have been moving rapidly towards a service industry based workforce,
hell that's most of my work history too. As for it doing a significant amount of damage by removing the illegals from the service industry, I can't
see that as being more than a small hiccup in the day to day routine even if they were to all be deported on the very same day and that sure as shit
won't happen. I've seen places emptied out by Immigration Officers coming around and it took no real time at all for all those positions to be filled
by a new crew. There are millions of unskilled workers entering the workforce every day looking for jobs like the ones that would be vacated if this
mass deportation happened.
Prices are rising steadily even with all these illegal workers and as people keep pointing out, supply and demand will dictate all kinds of things. In
other words, if wages increase because the workers are all legal, then prices will rise too, but if prices rise to a point where nobody can buy
anything, those prices won't last. It makes no sense for companies to charge more than their customers can pay for goods and as reluctant as they may
be to lose some profit margin they will have to if the economy (in real world/working man's terms) is to improve.
As for the welfare system, if you read my last comment at all, you should notice I was talking more in terms of the welfare or well being of the
community than the actual government programs grouped under the heading "welfare".
Again, as I just said, the entire answer does NOT lay in ONLY deporting the illegal workers, it is in both resolving their status and in removing the
employers incentive for hiring people under those conditions.
In address to your comment about these workers contributing to the economy, I'd love to see a breakdown of that. If by contributing, you mean to imply
that they are providing a higher profit margin for their rich bosses, then I guess technically you are correct. Unfortunately, as those of us who grew
up in Reagan's shadow can assure you, trickle down economics is a fucking lie. In addition, the wages those workers make are largely going back home
to their families instead of being spent in the communities they have a direct influence on by working and living in.
You keep coming back to the misinformed idea that everybody who is against illegal workers is throwing out any humanitarian concern and that seems to
be a big sticking point for you. As a few of us have said, it's not that we are against helping people, it's that there is a higher priority in that
we have a nation full of people who need help already and they are being passed over in favor of people who are breaking this country's laws in order
to take advantage of opportunities that used to be available to everyone. It's incredibly short sighted to think that by allowing these people to
continue to work for criminally low wages that this problem will somehow resolve itself. If we can clear the slate, get ourselves back on track and
have a truly healthy economy, meaning one that doesn't just make the rich richer and fuck everyone else, THEN we can try to help out our neighbors.
Basically what we have is a nation-sized version of what happened in New Orleans. The country is in disaster mode and we are being looted. Yes, that's
a vastly simplified version of reality, but while we are struggling to get by (let alone get ahead), our neighbors (who admittedly are worse off) are
coming in and taking needed tools away.
Veritas odium parit
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Discipline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
Quite frankly I think getting so hung up on "the law" that we throw out humanitarian concern and compassion is far more detrimental to our country
than providing a means for legalization and a wider reaching guest worker program. |
I don't see it as being hung up on the law. We have no obligation whatsoever to take care of the poor of the world, but we help out anyway. The fact
that they have broken several laws isn't a small thing. If they can't provide for their families in their own countries, how is that our fault? Why
should we ignore established laws? If people aren't willing to go through the legal process of immigrating they have NO RIGHT TO BE HERE. It's that
simple. In North America we have enough poor people, enough children going without regular meals, enough homeless people. These are the people we
need to look after, not the poor people in other sovereign nations.
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
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