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XHonusWagnerX
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Boston Police want to search homes with no warrents
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/11/17/police_...
Police to search for guns in homes
City program depends on parental consent
Email|Print| Text size – + By Maria Cramer
Globe Staff / November 17, 2007
Boston police are launching a program that will call upon parents in high-crime neighborhoods to allow detectives into their homes, without a warrant,
to search for guns in their children's bedrooms.
The program, which is already raising questions about civil liberties, is based on the premise that parents are so fearful of gun violence and the
possibility that their own teenagers will be caught up in it that they will turn to police for help, even in their own households.
In the next two weeks, Boston police officers who are assigned to schools will begin going to homes where they believe teenagers might have guns. The
officers will travel in groups of three, dress in plainclothes to avoid attracting negative attention, and ask the teenager's parent or legal guardian
for permission to search. If the parents say no, police said, the officers will leave.
If officers find a gun, police said, they will not charge the teenager with unlawful gun possession, unless the firearm is linked to a shooting or
homicide.
The program was unveiled yesterday by Police Commissioner Edward F. Davis in a meeting with several community leaders.
globe graphic Pilot neighborhoods in search program
"I just have a queasy feeling anytime the police try to do an end run around the Constitution," said Thomas Nolan, a former Boston police lieutenant
who now teaches criminology at Boston University. "The police have restrictions on their authority and ability to conduct searches. The Constitution
was written with a very specific intent, and that was to keep the law out of private homes unless there is a written document signed by a judge and
based on probable cause. Here, you don't have that."
Critics said they worry that some residents will be too intimidated by a police presence on their doorstep to say no to a search.
"Our biggest concern is the notion of informed consent," said Amy Reichbach, a racial justice advocate at the American Civil Liberties Union. "People
might not understand the implications of weapons being tested or any contraband being found."
But Davis said the point of the program, dubbed Safe Homes, is to make streets safer, not to incarcerate people.
"This isn't evidence that we're going to present in a criminal case," said Davis, who met with community leaders yesterday to get feedback on the
program. "This is a seizing of a very dangerous object. . . .
"I understand people's concerns about this, but the mothers of the young men who have been arrested with firearms that I've talked to are in a
quandary," he said. "They don't know what to do when faced with the problem of dealing with a teenage boy in possession of a firearm. We're giving
them an option in that case."
But some activists questioned whether the program would reduce the number of weapons on the street.
more stories like this
A criminal whose gun is seized can quickly obtain another, said Jorge Martinez, executive director of Project Right, who Davis briefed on the program
earlier this week.
"There is still an individual who is an impact player who is not going to change because you've taken the gun from the household," he said.
The program will focus on juveniles 17 and younger and is modeled on an effort started in 1994 by the St. Louis Police Department, which stopped the
program in 1999 partly because funding ran out.
Police said they will not search the homes of teenagers they suspect have been involved in shootings or homicides and who investigators are trying to
prosecute.
globe graphic Pilot neighborhoods in search program
"In a case where we have investigative leads or there is an impact player that we know has been involved in serious criminal activity, we will pursue
investigative leads against them and attempt to get into that house with a search warrant, so we can hold them accountable," Davis said.
Police will rely primarily on tips from neighbors. They will also follow tips from the department's anonymous hot line and investigators' own
intelligence to decide what doors to knock on. A team of about 12 officers will visit homes in four Dorchester and Roxbury neighborhoods: Grove Hall,
Bowdoin Street and Geneva Avenue, Franklin Hill and Franklin Field, and Egleston Square.
If drugs are found, it will be up to the officers' discretion whether to make an arrest, but police said modest amounts of drugs like marijuana will
simply be confiscated and will not lead to charges.
"A kilo of cocaine would not be considered modest," said Elaine Driscoll, Davis's spokeswoman. "The officers that have been trained have been taught
discretion."
The program will target young people whose parents are either afraid to confront them or unaware that they might be stashing weapons, said Davis, who
has been trying to gain support from community leaders for the past several weeks.
One of the first to back him was the Rev. Jeffrey L. Brown, cofounder of the Boston TenPoint Coalition, who attended yesterday's meeting.
"What I like about this program is it really is a tool to empower the parent," he said. "It's a way in which they can get a hold of the household and
say, 'I don't want that in my house.' "
Suffolk District Attorney Daniel F. Conley, whose support was crucial for police to guarantee there would be no prosecution, also agreed to back the
initiative. "To me it's a preventive tool," he said.
Boston police officials touted the success of the St. Louis program's first year, when 98 percent of people approached gave consent and St. Louis
police seized guns from about half of the homes they searched.
St. Louis police reassured skeptics by letting them observe searches, said Robert Heimberger, a retired St. Louis police sergeant who was part of the
program.
"We had parents that invited us back, and a couple of them nearly insisted that we take keys to their house and come back anytime we wanted," he said.
But the number of people who gave consent plunged in the next four years, as the police chief who spearheaded the effort left and department support
fell, according to a report published by the National Institute of Justice.
Support might also have flagged because over time police began to rely more on their own intelligence than on neighborhood tips, the report said.
Heimberger said the program also suffered after clergy leaders who were supposed to offer help to parents never appeared.
"I became frustrated when I'd get the second, or third, or fourth phone call from someone who said, 'No one has come to talk to me,' " he said.
Residents "lost faith in the program and that hurt us."
Boston police plan to hold neighborhood meetings to inform the public about the program. Police are also promising follow-up visits from clergy or
social workers, and they plan to allow the same scrutiny that St. Louis did.
"We want the community to know what we're doing," Driscoll said.
Ronald Odom - whose son, Steven, 13, was fatally shot last month as he walked home from basketball practice - was at yesterday's meeting and said the
program is a step in the right direction. "Everyone talks about curbing violence," he said, following the meeting. ". . . This is definitely a head
start."
| Quote: | Originally posted by REV.PAULIE
HONUS-as much as i can't stand a great deal of what you really like (for my own reasons that i would never hold,nor impose,against you),YOU FUCKING
RULE!
YOU,HONUS,IS WHAT MAKES THE "EDGE" COOL.
YOUR FRIEND,
PAULIE |
check out my post contributions at www.VinylNoize.com
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upyerbum
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I really don't see a problem there, problems could arise though if the police begin resorting to scare tactics when the answer is no. I understand
what they are trying to accomplish, but its sketchy territory.
Well, its this place where nobody works, and the pigs don\'t give you any shit. Everyone smokes weed and gets drunk all day. Its a place where
cunts like me and you can truly take it easy and relax. Know what I mean?
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clevohardcore
* Kick\'n ass on the wild side *
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Not at all. Search those unlawful teens. KIds at that age think they are invincealbe and the law protects them if they get caught. Ya not catch them
and rid the streets of that illegal gun before it gets worse.
Each aspect of the soul has it's own part to play, but the ideal is harmonious agreement with reason and control.
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Six66Mike
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I dunno what's worse in America right now, unwarranted search in "ghetto's" (why not all homes, why discriminate when the kids shooting up schools are
not from the poorest neighbourhoods?) or the forced vaccination program happening in Prince George County, Maryland.
If parents don't get the kids booster shots & catch them up to the vaccine schedule, they are being taken to court and possibly fined etc.
 USA
A lot of people ask me what kind of music I like. I love "soul music". My "soul music" isn’t a style, genre or niche. It’s music that is genuine. It’s
a painful lyric, a dirty bassline, it’s a harrowing vocal, it’s feedback, it’s an anthem, it’s a love song, it’s anarchy. I’ve got my personal
favourites but in the end it doesn’t matter who or where it comes from... so long as it’s good and it's real.
- Paul Morris, music director at 97.7 HTZ-FM
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gavin
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The officers will travel in groups of three, dress in plainclothes to avoid attracting negative attention, and ask the teenager's parent or legal
guardian for permission to search. If the parents say no, police said, the officers will leave.
If officers find a gun, police said, they will not charge the teenager with unlawful gun possession, unless the firearm is linked to a shooting or
homicide
i dont see the problem if they have the owners of the homes blessing to search
you come at the king....you best not miss
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newbreedbrian
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yeah, i think the problem is the police know how easy it is to intimidate you. alot of people don't know it's within their legal rights to refuse the
search. the handful of weapons that are taken off the streets will easily be replaced the next week. band aid solution to score political points is
all this is.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, ?You know, I want to set those people over there on
fire, but I?m just not close enough to get the job done.? George Carlin
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Six66Mike
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Simple question, why don't PARENTS keep an eye on their kids shit and look for weapons in their own house instead of inviting the cops in to do it?
A lot of people ask me what kind of music I like. I love "soul music". My "soul music" isn’t a style, genre or niche. It’s music that is genuine. It’s
a painful lyric, a dirty bassline, it’s a harrowing vocal, it’s feedback, it’s an anthem, it’s a love song, it’s anarchy. I’ve got my personal
favourites but in the end it doesn’t matter who or where it comes from... so long as it’s good and it's real.
- Paul Morris, music director at 97.7 HTZ-FM
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DaveMoral
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Does anyone else think this is a steady march towards fascism? Seriously. It starts by introducing methods and ideas that people aren't knee-jerk
opposed to, and gradually works towards getting the population to embrace the worst of state criminality. That's precisely how the National Socialists
did it in Germany in the 30s.
To me this isn't much different from Mike Nutter's "stop and frisk" policy in Philly. The most amazing thing about that is it's seemingly even more
innocuous because a black man is propogating the idea, and it has so much potential for just becoming racially motivated.
Worst part is, I'm not knee jerk reacting against the ideas proposed.
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godabandonedme
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Stop letting the press get you all hpyed up over stupid shit. Obviously, police wouldn't need a warrent if consent was given by the owner of the
house......so why not call it "Consensual searches in homes" as opposed to "Warrentless"?? Cause that doesn't sell papers or scare people. Same with
the stop and frisk thing. Knock Knock, we do that every single day, hundreds of times a day. But something called the "Terry pat down for dangerous
weapons plan" wouldn't sell papers....so it's oh my god stop an frisk? Ridiculous.
\"Leave the gun....take the canolis.\"
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gavin
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| Quote: | Originally posted by godabandonedme
Stop letting the press get you all hpyed up over stupid shit. Obviously, police wouldn't need a warrent if consent was given by the owner of the
house......so why not call it "Consensual searches in homes" as opposed to "Warrentless"?? Cause that doesn't sell papers or scare people. Same with
the stop and frisk thing. Knock Knock, we do that every single day, hundreds of times a day. But something called the "Terry pat down for dangerous
weapons plan" wouldn't sell papers....so it's oh my god stop an frisk? Ridiculous. |
well said
you come at the king....you best not miss
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MyOwnWay
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This is a bad idea. What is the information based on that makes them want to go to the homes?
I think if thier is an outreach program where parents can call a local precinct and say, hey I think my kid has a gun, come out and check. Thats ok.
But to randomly show up on a door step and say, mind if we come in... That is a very bad idea and can absolutely lead to worse situations that would
be in violation of civil liberties. Overall, this gets a thumbs down from me.
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gavin
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MyOwnWay
This is a bad idea. What is the information based on that makes them want to go to the homes?
I think if thier is an outreach program where parents can call a local precinct and say, hey I think my kid has a gun, come out and check. Thats ok.
But to randomly show up on a door step and say, mind if we come in... That is a very bad idea and can absolutely lead to worse situations that would
be in violation of civil liberties. Overall, this gets a thumbs down from me. |
this would be all well and good assuming the parents care enough to do some sort of program but we all know that this is not the case.
if the owner of the household allows entry, then there should be no debate about this at all.
check into reality people.
there is no rights violations here.
stop with the paranoia in places where its uncalled for
you come at the king....you best not miss
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MyOwnWay
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I'm not saying anything has been violated. But the tolerance of allowing police to come up to a doorstep warrantless and ask permission, presuming
they leave when requested too, this can lead to serious consenquences. I'm not saying this act is illegal, but what this leads to. And the
discrimination of how do you choose a home? Off hear say? Income? Neighborhood statistics? I see more damage than good that can come from this.
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godabandonedme
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Hey, your kids a piece of shit an got caught at school with drugs. Or in a gang whatever. Gangs + drugs = guns and violence. Can we come in? No,
ok no problem. Idiot is gona get caught doing something stupid at some point anyway. There is absolutely no violation of any rights here. There is
a "outreach program" for things like this, it's called picking up the phone and calling 911. This isn't Germany circa 1938, relax. Cops do this
stuff every single day. They are free to walk up to any house on the block and ask to search it, and you have every right to say no. To get a
warrent they would have to have articuable facts of probable cause, but nothing says a cop can't just walk up to you and ask to search you, your
vehicle, home etc. If your dumb enough to say yes knowing something illegal is there, you deserve to get locked up. Again, this is just bullshit
media hype.
\"Leave the gun....take the canolis.\"
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Voodoobillyman
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There is nothing wrong with this, if it's consensual, then a warrant does not matter. There is nothing new or infringing about this at all.
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gavin
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| Quote: | Originally posted by godabandonedme
Hey, your kids a piece of shit an got caught at school with drugs. Or in a gang whatever. Gangs + drugs = guns and violence. Can we come in? No,
ok no problem. Idiot is gona get caught doing something stupid at some point anyway. There is absolutely no violation of any rights here. There is
a "outreach program" for things like this, it's called picking up the phone and calling 911. This isn't Germany circa 1938, relax. Cops do this
stuff every single day. They are free to walk up to any house on the block and ask to search it, and you have every right to say no. To get a
warrent they would have to have articuable facts of probable cause, but nothing says a cop can't just walk up to you and ask to search you, your
vehicle, home etc. If your dumb enough to say yes knowing something illegal is there, you deserve to get locked up. Again, this is just bullshit
media hype. |
again, well said from someone who knows whats what
you come at the king....you best not miss
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MyOwnWay
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Sadly, you are all missing the point. I never said anything about this being in any sort of violation.
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gavin
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MyOwnWay
Sadly, you are all missing the point. I never said anything about this being in any sort of violation. |
then what are you saying?
you come at the king....you best not miss
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MyOwnWay
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBadVibes
| Quote: | Originally posted by MyOwnWay
Sadly, you are all missing the point. I never said anything about this being in any sort of violation. |
then what are you saying? |
As I said in my earlier post... What this could lead to. The kind of warrantless action and possible discriminatory efforts for the "good of the
cause". As I said, what is this walking up to someones doorstep based upon? What info? And could it lead to a more severe type of search based on
police suspicion in the years to come?
If we allow police to randomly knock on doors asking to search where does the line get drawn over privacy and probable cause. You cay its ok, they're
just asking. Fine, but whats makes them go to that doorstep and whats to stop them from picking a million homes. If a cop came to my doorstep and
asked to look around, I'd be pissed. And I dont own any firearms. But what if they get a few. Then they get a supreme court ruling because out 100
homes 62 of them had a gun. Then the court says ok, if you think you have reason, just go on in the house.
Those are the things that can happen. What these types of "first steps" can lead to. I do not think this program is going to clean up streets or make
neighborhoods safer. I see it as a very bad idea. Period.
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gavin
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all i ever hear is "what this or that can lead to"
and none of this sort of thing EVER leads to anything other then what it is
cant we cross a "what if" bridge when/if we get to it?
you come at the king....you best not miss
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MyOwnWay
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The things I have mentioned are a real concern. The what if's are based on realistic scenarios. Why let it get that far? There is no other possible
way for streets to improve than this method right here? There is no other non-evasive way of going about things? I'm not saying everythings fine. But
I am saying this is one suggestion that can have far worse effects than the seemingly good.
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gavin
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MyOwnWay
The things I have mentioned are a real concern. The what if's are based on realistic scenarios. Why let it get that far? There is no other possible
way for streets to improve than this method right here? There is no other non-evasive way of going about things? I'm not saying everythings fine. But
I am saying this is one suggestion that can have far worse effects than the seemingly good. |
so whats your ideas to improve things then if this is so bad?
you come at the king....you best not miss
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MyOwnWay
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBadVibes
| Quote: | Originally posted by MyOwnWay
The things I have mentioned are a real concern. The what if's are based on realistic scenarios. Why let it get that far? There is no other possible
way for streets to improve than this method right here? There is no other non-evasive way of going about things? I'm not saying everythings fine. But
I am saying this is one suggestion that can have far worse effects than the seemingly good. |
I'm going to let that question go. The article was posted. I disagree with it. I shared my opinion. Let it rest.
so whats your ideas to improve things then if this is so bad? |
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gavin
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no im not going to let it rest
this is a discussion that you were all about chiming in on until i asked the question to you
see, this is what i find wrong with alot of society today
eceryone, including myself at times, is so quick to yell about all the things they think are wrong with an idea until they are asked what they would
do
then its all "i dont have all the answers" or "its not my job to think up this stuff"
well, why not?
if things are so bad with the way shit is being run, give me some answers as to how things can be done better
you come at the king....you best not miss
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MyOwnWay
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBadVibes
no im not going to let it rest
this is a discussion that you were all about chiming in on until i asked the question to you
see, this is what i find wrong with alot of society today
eceryone, including myself at times, is so quick to yell about all the things they think are wrong with an idea until they are asked what they would
do
then its all "i dont have all the answers" or "its not my job to think up this stuff"
well, why not?
if things are so bad with the way shit is being run, give me some answers as to how things can be done better |
Heres the deal. Anytime ever, I have had an opinion on this board of a political nature or otherwise it has been left open for complete scrutiny. It
gets old. So I enjoy the casual laid back approach. But your above post struck a nerve now.
What I think would be better is a more efficient distribution of tax dollars. Put to schools for educational programs such as violence. Community
programs for adolescents and teens sponsored by local establishments. Libraries getting more agressive towards advertisements geared towards the
importance. I think whats gonna help the situation of violence in inner-city and suburband communities is to educate them and make the youth aware of
ways out. In addition give them places to go. Something to do. Give schools and libraries the resources to hold parent meetings and support groups to
share ideas within the community that start with their own household. Those are the things I think will help greatly and far more effectively than
randomly or targeting a home and/or neighborhood and walking up in someones house with or without warrant.
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