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gavin
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MyOwnWay
| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBadVibes
no im not going to let it rest
this is a discussion that you were all about chiming in on until i asked the question to you
see, this is what i find wrong with alot of society today
eceryone, including myself at times, is so quick to yell about all the things they think are wrong with an idea until they are asked what they would
do
then its all "i dont have all the answers" or "its not my job to think up this stuff"
well, why not?
if things are so bad with the way shit is being run, give me some answers as to how things can be done better |
Heres the deal. Anytime ever, I have had an opinion on this board of a political nature or otherwise it has been left open for complete scrutiny. It
gets old. So I enjoy the casual laid back approach. But your above post struck a nerve now.
What I think would be better is a more efficient distribution of tax dollars. Put to schools for educational programs such as violence. Community
programs for adolescents and teens sponsored by local establishments. Libraries getting more agressive towards advertisements geared towards the
importance. I think whats gonna help the situation of violence in inner-city and suburband communities is to educate them and make the youth aware of
ways out. In addition give them places to go. Something to do. Give schools and libraries the resources to hold parent meetings and support groups to
share ideas within the community that start with their own household. Those are the things I think will help greatly and far more effectively than
randomly or targeting a home and/or neighborhood and walking up in someones house with or without warrant. |
and i agree with you 110%
but these are LONG TERM ideads
something that would take YEARS to see any effect from
what do we do in the here and now?
i for sure dont have the answers
but i dont find this to be a bad idea per say
so what, in the short term, do we as a community do if not except things such as this as a nessesity in this current state of things?
you come at the king....you best not miss
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godabandonedme
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Police are allowed to randomly walk up to any house they want and ask to investigate based on no evidence of a crime being/having been/will be
commited. It's called a "mere encounter". It's like a cop asking you on the street, how's your day going? Nice weather huh? Do you happen to have a
gun or drugs on you? That's our job. The public is has absolutely every right to refuse to answer or in this case let them in. Basically the 5th
amendment. No probable cause by cops = don't incriminate yourself. Do you have a teenaged son/daughter? If so where they ever arrested and what
for? Oh narcotics violations? Gang affiliation/violent assaults? If you answer yes to those questions of your own free will (which is the same with
letting them in) then you voulanteerd(sic) that information which a cop (like any reasonable person) could then assume that a firearm or narcotics
could be in the house. Mind if we get a look at his room? Oh theres some paraphanilla. Mere encounter (just stopping by to say hi) + reasonable
suspicion (your kid is a shitbag admitted by you) + evidence of narcotics in plain view = probable cause for a search warrent. If your an American
and you don't know your rights or how to exercise them, you don't deserve them. Enough about "who's homes there going to" Guess what, this shit is
happening more in the ghetto, where there is smoke there is fire. Stop worrying about what the papers say, again it's a business they need to sell
shit. I don't know whrere you live, but this city is a fucking literal warzone because of people that don't give 2 fucks about your basic right to
live, so if a few people get pissed in the meantime to bad. We're not trying to or ever going to start shipping off black people in trains anytime
soon so forget that shit. I'm pretty conservative and sternly beleive in our rights, however I think they were written along with some laws because
poloticians know that some people just don't have any fucking common sense. All of our basic rights are common sense, but some people are so stupid
they need it spelled out for them an when laws are written with that in mind that actually ends up hindering the police and fucking with public
safety. Look, I know a drug dealer/gang member/lowlife scumbag criminal when I see one, if it looks like a duck etc...but some stupid fucks need it
spelled out, now you have laws written that protect these assholes from police just being able to walk up on them and give them what they deserve.
Most of that shit comes through local an federal case law, but that's just a broader view of it. Look up something called "forced abandonedment",
here's an example: I'm driving down the street as a cop and look over at a guy I've locked up before, he's juts walking down the street, he sees me
an gets scared, pulls out a gun and a pound of coke, throws them an runs. Now I chase him an grab him. That will get thrown out of court immeaditly
(wouldn't make it past prelim hearing). Basically the law says that since the guy was doing nothing wrong an I didn't have any probable cause to stop
him before he dumped the shit I wouldn't have known about it had he not got scared by my simple presence and his assumption I was going to stop him,
therefore the gun an drugs aren't admisable as evidence. I could have stopped to ask how his day was an if he were uncomfortable he could have walked
away, unless I saw something perculiar I couldn't legally do anymore to detain or investigate him I wouldn't have found the stuff. Fucking lawyers.
But it all is based on the fact that he has no common sense, he assumed I was going to stop him, but if he had common sense he would know I legally
can't. Argh, my head hurts now.
\"Leave the gun....take the canolis.\"
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Murk
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i have NEVER, in my whole life, been in a situation where i told a cop "no" and it was a pleasant experience.
i have NEVER, in my whole life, been in a situation where i told a cop i was aware of my rights and it was a pleasant experience.
looks like there's spin on both sides of the coin.
| Quote: | Originally posted by godabandonedme
But it all is based on the fact that he has no common sense, he assumed I was going to stop him, but if he had common sense he would know I legally
can't. |
fair enough, but i'm guessing if i showed up in Philly to teach inner city youth about their rights and "common sense", as you call it, i would not be
a favorite of you and your colleagues.
i'm also guessing that if the Philly school system mandated that every child past the 6th grade would have to learn their rights and "common sense",
there would be disapproval also.
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Six66Mike
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I'm still interested in why parents don't just keep an eye on their kids. If anyone is going to suspect something its the parents that lives with the
kids and sees changes going on and any dodgy behaviour.
But how about this. Police knock, ask if they can look for guns and drugs, you say sure because you feel pushed into it. They come in, look through
the room and find neither. But what if they see something else illegal? They were only granted permission to come and look for 2 things, nothing
else. They had no probable cause for their other discovery, whatever it may be so the discovery of that item was without warrant.
What would happen then? Is there cause for arrest, evidence submissible to the courts? Will the reason why they found it come up in court?
Too many loose ends and as people said, this was Germany in the 30's...
A lot of people ask me what kind of music I like. I love "soul music". My "soul music" isn’t a style, genre or niche. It’s music that is genuine. It’s
a painful lyric, a dirty bassline, it’s a harrowing vocal, it’s feedback, it’s an anthem, it’s a love song, it’s anarchy. I’ve got my personal
favourites but in the end it doesn’t matter who or where it comes from... so long as it’s good and it's real.
- Paul Morris, music director at 97.7 HTZ-FM
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newbreedbrian
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I don't think anything is going to force immediate change, again band aid solutions. the only way to change any of this is to look at long term
solutions and basically the bigger picture itself. putting more money into education and health care are the two biggest. if you cut even a fraction
of military spending and diverted it to these two things (even for a predetermined amount of time), that would be a huge step in the right direction.
and not just a little token bit here and there to show "we care". i think another thing, and this may be a little more arbitrary than the others, is
borrowing the the idea of parent's responsibility for their childrens actions from asian culture. the fact is a lot of kids never had a chance from
the start. as tough as i ever had it, my life was a fucking fairy tale compared to some peoples childhoods. looking at the root causes of our current
social problems makes alot more sense than these kind of tactics. i'm not trying to chirp anyone here who agrees with this, but do you honestly
believe this "outreach program" is really going to do any good in the larger scheme of things? another step in the right direction would be to stop
glamorizing the wrong people, wastes of space like Paris Hilton and drug dealing thug rap stars. Make heroes out of the people in this world that are
actually trying to do some good for people.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, ?You know, I want to set those people over there on
fire, but I?m just not close enough to get the job done.? George Carlin
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Six66Mike
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Government's are stupid, they don't want to spend money on essentials that will benefit them and society in the long run.
If you educate people and give them enough money to live, you bring them up. But it will cost billions to make sure they have the health and
education to get to the right places. However those billions can be recouped by contributing members to society who live longer and are happier.
They just want to think about the now quick fix to look good because they won't be around long enough to reap the rewards of the policies they could
put in place to fix things long term.
I hate politics.
A lot of people ask me what kind of music I like. I love "soul music". My "soul music" isn’t a style, genre or niche. It’s music that is genuine. It’s
a painful lyric, a dirty bassline, it’s a harrowing vocal, it’s feedback, it’s an anthem, it’s a love song, it’s anarchy. I’ve got my personal
favourites but in the end it doesn’t matter who or where it comes from... so long as it’s good and it's real.
- Paul Morris, music director at 97.7 HTZ-FM
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upyerbum
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Food for thought.....
If the US government had invested as much money into Social Security as it has into the Iraq war (just Iraq, not talking war on terror or any of the
spin-off spending) it would have been enough to carry the American Social Security system into the next CENTURY. The debt that has been incurred and
continues to be incurred will take at least that long to pay off, IF it is payed at a rate equaling the equivalent of TWO such wars a year. You make
your bed and then, guess what, you gotta' sleep in it.
What it boils down to is priorities. It is a band aid solution yes, but if steps are being taken to reduce the need for such solutions, maybe its not
such a big deal. However I don't see such steps being taken, so it boils down to more perceived power to the police and the little guy getting stepped
on. True or not that is how it is perceived, and it may not be the best move with the current climate of civil libetry violations in your great United
States.
Well, its this place where nobody works, and the pigs don\'t give you any shit. Everyone smokes weed and gets drunk all day. Its a place where
cunts like me and you can truly take it easy and relax. Know what I mean?
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godabandonedme
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Why is it the goverments job to "give them money to live"? I went to a shitty inner city public school and failed because I choose to, not because
the class was to crowded or the teachers didn't care or whatever. It's not any type of solution at all, it's something that has always been there but
like I said the papers use headlines to make it seem like the goverment is sending people in to ransack our homes. I've had to work for whatever I
have (which ain't much). Can't get a job cause you dropped out of high school? To bad, bite the bullet get a GED learn something and better
yourself. Why is it always someone elses responsibility? My taxes go to pay for people that don't care about themselves let alone their impact on
society, everything they have was given to them for free. When your raised like that you'll never learn the value of anything let alone hard work, or
god forbid the value of a human life, hence why it's no big thing to lay a few rounds out at some corner boys who disrespected you. I've met some
great people in the ghetto, but I say unless your over 60, there is absolutely no excuse as to why you can't get out and do better for yourself or
family. Or, you can live in your HUD house that's payed for by the goverment every month, take your welfare check (*more kids = more $$$) and get a
Benz with 22's. It's a shitty world, but I think around 18 you gota man the fuck up an decide what you want with your life, stop using excuses and
get YOUR priorities straight, why should the goverment have to? Were getting off subject, yea Iraq sucks an we can argue all day if we should be
there, but to bad, we are there and Americans are dying and we are not pulling out in a day, I would bet that more then half of the enlisted troops
over there only went in to get money for college or for career training etc., people who had there shit straight an are now in a shitty situation.
Back to the "plan" (it's not a plan at all, something we can always do). I'm all for exercising your rights, HOWEVER using them as a scapegoat to not
get in trouble because your a shitbag or raised shitbag kids is not what I think those rights were meant to intale. Personally, I say let the animals
kill themselves (that's what they are doing anyway) because even when we do try to help, these fucks don't want it or want it done their own way,
sorry shit doesn't work like that. Every liberal bleeding heart "oh they are so poor an it's everyones fault but their own" should spend a month in
North Philly. Get it right, these ghettos aren't some third world refugee camps where people want out of, these people choose to live this way.
Well, if you choose to be a shitbag then your gona get treated like one plain and simple.
\"Leave the gun....take the canolis.\"
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Voodoobillyman
The Artist Formerly Known As...
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I'm seeing these same kinds of concepts being used right now in a foreign nation and guess what, they are working for the short term, now if the GOI
could get off it's collective fat asses and get some serious politicing done, we might be able to put this baby to bed and come home. But for the
short term, strict security measures are required to quell otherwise out of hand violence that would continue to boil over and get nowhere for anyone
except in the ground. These consents to search in high profile crime type areas where issues exist are nothing even close to what is being done here,
Law Enforcement has a job to do and because of our rights their hands are heavily tied trying to do it. People scream "why don't they fuckin do
anything about all of this sensless violence, drug abuse, crime etc....??!!!" And the same fuckers scream out of the other side of their faces "The
cops are violating our rights and gestapo this and ss that and blah blah blah!" If you don't have anything to hide, whats the problem? Something has
to give, if you really fear what decisions lawmakers may make in the future based on these actions, vote for lawmakers that would refrain from
allowing warranless searches become the norm. I did like the community programs brought up here as a long term solution though, it would work, if you
had someone willing to fund it and work it correctly.
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godabandonedme
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=YLysDc5b3u8&feature=related
I have personally locked up or been there for every person in that video SEVERAL times. This video was later used in court to help convict the idiot
showing the Tec for the murder of Faheem Thomas Childs in 03'. He was a 9 year old kid leaving school at 23rd and Cambria (also a big drug corner).
Well there was 2 groups who wanted to sell on that corner and about 2:30pm when school let out, they shot over 80 bullets at each other killing
childs, and wounding a crossing gaurd. These animals make the CHOICE to live like this. Community programs usually do not work, remember your
dealing with people who hate police, teach their children to hate police and any other type of authority. All you get at a community meeting is what
they want how they want it, because everything else has been given to them they think that is the normal way life should work. Anyway, that's pretty
much the center of where I work.
\"Leave the gun....take the canolis.\"
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upyerbum
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Its called a welfare state. My question is how is that any different from the rich scumbags who routinely break laws and circumnavigate tax
regulations etc., to a far greater detriment for your country. They have the exact same sense of entitlement. I'm rich, I deserve it. I'm poor, I
deserve it. What's the difference.
Maybe they should be taking this approach to big business. "Excuse me, would you mind if we had a look at your books?" They don't though because there
would be a fucking battalion of lawyers at their throats. So they don't do anything. Same on the street, they go after the small time guys, the guys
putting the shit in their hands never get touched though, do they?
That being said, I am aware that the police have a very hard job to do, and anything we discuss here, ain't gonna' change shit on the street. Once
politicians realize that, maybe something will change.
Well, its this place where nobody works, and the pigs don\'t give you any shit. Everyone smokes weed and gets drunk all day. Its a place where
cunts like me and you can truly take it easy and relax. Know what I mean?
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godabandonedme
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"Its called a welfare state. My question is how is that any different from the rich scumbags who routinely break laws and circumnavigate tax
regulations etc., to a far greater detriment for your country. They have the exact same sense of entitlement. I'm rich, I deserve it. I'm poor, I
deserve it. What's the difference.
Maybe they should be taking this approach to big business. "Excuse me, would you mind if we had a look at your books?" They don't though because there
would be a fucking battalion of lawyers at their throats. So they don't do anything. Same on the street, they go after the small time guys, the guys
putting the shit in their hands never get touched though, do they?"
Why is it no one can address the subject of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY? Why compare it to anything else? Apples and Oranges. If you can really put the
two in the same class then I really think you don't have any insight on what is going on. "Sure I shot that mother fucker, he was talking shit the
other day, don't pay attention to me though there's a guy downtown that embezzled a million dollars from some big company.."
Sure I did something wrong, but he did something worse. Plus he's rich and doesn't have to live like me.
Come on, this is ridiculous.
\"Leave the gun....take the canolis.\"
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upyerbum
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Cause and effect buddy, it all starts at the top of the food chain, and if you can't see that then I really think you don't have any insight on what
is going on.
Class parity in the US is on the same scale as Brazil and only going to get worse, so you best clean your gun and polish your badge.
Well, its this place where nobody works, and the pigs don\'t give you any shit. Everyone smokes weed and gets drunk all day. Its a place where
cunts like me and you can truly take it easy and relax. Know what I mean?
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DaveMoral
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBadVibes
all i ever hear is "what this or that can lead to"
and none of this sort of thing EVER leads to anything other then what it is
cant we cross a "what if" bridge when/if we get to it? |
NO! Because it's a slippery fucking slope, and the trajectory of this country has been heading further and further from the ideals laid down in the
Constitution towards more and more bowing to authority. It will inevitably lead to an authoritarian police state.
Talk about media hype. The majority of the media hype lies in keeping people fearful. This country no longer treats crime like a social ill that needs
to be dealt with, but rather a rule and standard that ALL PEOPLE are criminal. Increasingly suspicion and paranoia is taking hold of this nation, and
it's been going on far longer than 9 11 2001. At least 60 years.
For the record, there's nothing inherently scary about the terms "warrantless search" or "stop and frisk," what raises alarm bells in SOME PEOPLE's
minds is the fact that it sounds so inocuous, that people are so willing to agree. And that fact that it is indeed a slippery slope. This isn't
Germany circa 1938, but it's moving steadily towards that.
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Barnesey
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Murk
i have NEVER, in my whole life, been in a situation where i told a cop "no" and it was a pleasant experience.
i have NEVER, in my whole life, been in a situation where i told a cop i was aware of my rights and it was a pleasant experience.
looks like there's spin on both sides of the coin.
| Quote: | Originally posted by godabandonedme
But it all is based on the fact that he has no common sense, he assumed I was going to stop him, but if he had common sense he would know I legally
can't. |
fair enough, but i'm guessing if i showed up in Philly to teach inner city youth about their rights and "common sense", as you call it, i would not be
a favorite of you and your colleagues.
i'm also guessing that if the Philly school system mandated that every child past the 6th grade would have to learn their rights and "common sense",
there would be disapproval also. |
Exactly, if the police want to arrest you, they will. If you know your rights, they will find some bullshit charge to at least book you for the night.
Even if you're not being confrontational, they take offense to it and want to run some big dick/pissing contest with you just to show they have power
over you. Been there plenty of times and I've always been polite with officers because the other way will get you nowhere but more trouble. I haven't
read this article so I can't comment on it. I'll check it out tomorrow. Murk, you're totally right in what you've stated and what I've seen below,
none of these points were addressed.
Live Fast Die Young
Push It To The Limit \'Til The Coffin Calls
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Barnesey
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| Quote: | Originally posted by godabandonedme
Sure I did something wrong, but he did something worse. Plus he's rich and doesn't have to live like me.
Come on, this is ridiculous. |
What's ridiculous is that the rich can spring bail while the poor motherfucker is sitting in County Jail. The rich gets a wheeling and dealing
attorney who is going to get him a deal, the poor guy gets railroaded because he has no choice but the Public Defender assigned to him who will most
likely sell his ass out. It's easy to preach all this right wing reactionary rhetoric when you're not dealing with it. I'm not saying people locked up
are in the right, but the question is even if they are innocent, do they have a fucking chance?
Live Fast Die Young
Push It To The Limit \'Til The Coffin Calls
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random
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Lots of short comments:
(1) Since it was mentioned above about what happens if cops find something other than guns... it's obvious, but it's also int the article if you go
read it... up to the officer. Basically, if you give consent to search for one thing, then anything they find is fair game. If you want to tie this
to other issues (though some of you don't seem like you'll be sympathetic), keep in mind that if grandma is retired and raising the kid since mom and
dad crapped out long ago, and the grandmother in in public housing, and there are drugs found (that the shitbag kid has)... then a retired,
law-abiding old lady who's trying to raise her grandkid decently may be out on her ass due to federal regulations regulations about drugs in public
housing. However, bottom line is that legally, *any* consent to search allows them to use *everything* that's found. And parents with good
intentions may be facing criminal charges or losing housing as a result.
(2) Quote: | Quote: | i have NEVER, in my whole life, been in a situation where i told a cop "no" and it was a pleasant experience.
i have NEVER, in my whole life, been in a situation where i told a cop i was aware of my rights and it was a pleasant experience.
|
This is the absolute fucking truth. And saying "no" or "I know my rights" usually leads right away to "Oh, so what are you trying to hide?"
(3) Legally, this program is a non-issue. Cops ask for consent... you give consent... cops search. There's nothing wrong with that, either. The
issue is that police are being taken off the street to go knock on doors and ask for consent. Why? How do they choose the houses? How often are
they coming back? When does this cross the line into harassment?
Better yet, why can't they just stop and frisk the kid on the street when he's carrying the gun/drugs?
The issue here is targeting people without enough evidence to get a search warrant. And I do take that pretty damn seriously. The "slippery slope"
is that the police are doing something legal, but they're specifically devoting resources in an effort to avoid collecting evidence using standard
practices and instead are going to spend a lot of time and effort knocking on doors. If the parents gave a shit that their kid was in a gang, they'd
call the cops themselves. But this seems like an intentional-yet-legal attempt to harass a community. And I've been the only white guy in a poor,
black community with a lot of drugs for long enough to know that I don't feel like being constantly harassed by police for being in the wrong area
with the wrong appearance.
(4) | Quote: | | Look, I know a drug dealer/gang member/lowlife scumbag criminal when I see one, if it looks like a duck etc... |
And I never want to give the police the authority to do anything because "I know a drug dealer/gang member/lowlife scumbag criminal when I see one."
Half this board has probably been accused of being a neo-Nazi at some point due to their appearance. Does that mean you should be stopped and
questioned for being in a poor, predominantly black neighborhood since a police officer "knows a racist skinhead when I see one," which must mean you
were looking for some blacks/Mexicans/drug users/ homosexuals/etc to commit a hate crime against?
If I didn't *do* anything to arouse suspicion, then I should be left the fuck alone.
(5) | Quote: | | If you don't have anything to hide, whats the problem? |
I hate that response, especially when it comes from conservatives who "believe" in small government (and I'm making no insinuations here about the
person who made the comment). The problem is that if the government (including the police) have no evidence that I did something wrong (at least not
enough to get a warrant from a court), then the government (including the police) need to leave me the fuck alone. War zones are different, and I
think we all understand that certain basic rights might be relaxed a bit in a fucking war zone. But the only way you can make that argument here (and
not somewhere like Iraq) is to say that we're in a situation where we need to sacrifice certain basic rights and freedoms. Fuck that. And I don't
give a shit how liberal or conservative you are, if you believe in the damn Constitution and the basic principles of this country, then the police
better goddamn well have a warrant or some serious fucking probable cause before they fucking knock on my door asking for permission to search... and
if they had that, they wouldn't need my permission in the first place.
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BDx13
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i'm really just replying to bump this thread back to the first page so i rememebr to read it later.
damn.
If I fail math, there goes my chance at a good job and a happy life full of hard work.
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