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BDx13
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first off, from a legal standpoint, i do think one could argue a stronger case for the parents as primary care giver if the husband has essentially
moved on. the main glitch being, of course, that they are not technically divorced. is he married to the other woman? imagine being in her shoes
through all of this. hope they don't get him on polygamy laws!
as for your question, saaaars... obviously, that's a very difficult one to answer. but i like to think that as long as my wife is alive, and i can
look into her eyes, i will be by her side and faithful to her. we don't have anything in writing, but she and i are both of the opinion that if
something like this were to happen to one of us, that we wouldn't want to be kept alive any longer the doctors thought it possible to recover.
If I fail math, there goes my chance at a good job and a happy life full of hard work.
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moron
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I think it's the norm for people who have a spouse who has some sort of accident like in this case to see someone else. People have physical needs,
and just because he's found another person that he can be intimate with doesnt mean that he doesnt care for his wife any longer and truly wants what's
best for her. I mean... he's spent 15 years married to what is essentially a vegetable. I think that's being a pretty damn devoted husband.
and I know that I would want my wife/girlfriend/whoever to move on in a case like this. First... how the hell would I know if she did, and even if I
was aware I wouldnt want to hold her back from fulfilling her very human and natural need for intimacy.
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SAAAAARS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by moron
I think it's the norm for people who have a spouse who has some sort of accident like in this case to see someone else. People have physical needs,
and just because he's found another person that he can be intimate with doesnt mean that he doesnt care for his wife any longer and truly wants what's
best for her. I mean... he's spent 15 years married to what is essentially a vegetable. I think that's being a pretty damn devoted husband.
and I know that I would want my wife/girlfriend/whoever to move on in a case like this. First... how the hell would I know if she did, and even if I
was aware I wouldnt want to hold her back from fulfilling her very human and natural need for intimacy. |
EXACTLY
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BDx13
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even the NY POST gets it.
If I fail math, there goes my chance at a good job and a happy life full of hard work.
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dannynsk
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If it was me I would hope someone would clip me already. The whole thing blows.
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moron
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Im suprised the Post has that headline. Arent they the more conservative newspaper of the NYC papers?
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LilOz
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| Quote: | Originally posted by dannynsk
If it was me I would hope someone would clip me already. The whole thing blows. |
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Shane
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I was totally on the side of the husband at first too. Then I heard that he possibly beat her and that is how this whole thing could have
started(because she is in this case because of a fall, correct?) Also if he has moved on with his life and is with another woman and has started a new
family, then just give up this right to her parents. He doesn't seem to love her if he has already moved on. Just a shitty deal all the way around.
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SAAAAARS
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i have no idea how true any of what i'm about to say is
but my friends mom said this all happened because she was anorexic and let it go too far and she had a heart attack and it killed her brain. or
something. when she explained it, it sounded better haha.
you've got to figure, having that happen to someone you love is something that would ruin your life as well. maybe he doesn't want to be miserable
forever and he's trying to be happy. i seriously don't blame the guy for having someone else. he waited seven years. for a wife that'll never respond.
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Jeff trhe Greek
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Thankfully I don't have to worry about this, as my boys would take me out, and I know they would. Euthanasia, jack her up on dope and let her die but
don't fuckin' starve her, that's just fucked, you don't even starve convicted diddlers to death. I don't know why he doesn't just kill her, he'd get
off I'm sure. I wouldn't have even waited that long, I know my girl wouldn't want to live like that.
Don\'t blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Shane
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| Quote: | Originally posted by SAAAAARS
i have no idea how true any of what i'm about to say is
but my friends mom said this all happened because she was anorexic and let it go too far and she had a heart attack and it killed her brain. or
something. when she explained it, it sounded better haha. |
Well that is different too. I don't know how it happened so I really have no place to say anything. Besides, you know, I don't know them. Hahaha.
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moron
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the way I understand it is that she had an eating disorder that caused a chemical imbalance in her body... which stopped her heart for however long it
was.
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Discipline
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Just od her on morphine or shove a pillow over her face and let it be done and over with. The family really needs to move on and grieve in private,
not on the news.
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
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Six66Mike
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I don't know what the media is doing in North America, but we get stories in the paper & on the news every day here. This is what I have read & seen
on tv:
1) The chick is still living. I've seen her sitting in chairs, laughing at her parents jokes, and her eyes open. She sure as fuck doesn't look
vegetative in any of the videos of her in the hospice.
2) The parents & husband are fighting about her death now. He wants cremation, they want a casket funeral.
3) Someone in NC got arrested for putting a $250,000 bounty on the husbands life and $50,000 on the lawyer who has been hearing most of the arguments
over the past 15 years.
4) Why the fuck was the same lawyer hearing this case repeatedly over 15 years? Why weren't the judges swapped or rotated to handle each new appeal
differently and maybe get some fresh input on the situation.
5) She can breathe on her own & lives properly there and again looks like she responds to her parents when they are there. All they are doing is
starving a living woman to death, that is fucked. I'm no religious guy or anything at all but what they are doing is fucking mental.
Its fucking retarded that the president & governer couldn't save this womans life yet they have both taken so many as governors in their own time.
They can willingly kill people in the death chamber but can't save a breathing woman's life. No wonder people around the world have such a fucking
distaste for the USA.
A lot of people ask me what kind of music I like. I love "soul music". My "soul music" isn’t a style, genre or niche. It’s music that is genuine. It’s
a painful lyric, a dirty bassline, it’s a harrowing vocal, it’s feedback, it’s an anthem, it’s a love song, it’s anarchy. I’ve got my personal
favourites but in the end it doesn’t matter who or where it comes from... so long as it’s good and it's real.
- Paul Morris, music director at 97.7 HTZ-FM
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BDx13
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Schiavo's expressions misleading, experts say
If I fail math, there goes my chance at a good job and a happy life full of hard work.
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Six66Mike
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Experts also say she isn't suffering haha that's a load. You can't go that long without food or water & have it feel great.
And the site wants me to join up before I read the link. Boo to that.
A lot of people ask me what kind of music I like. I love "soul music". My "soul music" isn’t a style, genre or niche. It’s music that is genuine. It’s
a painful lyric, a dirty bassline, it’s a harrowing vocal, it’s feedback, it’s an anthem, it’s a love song, it’s anarchy. I’ve got my personal
favourites but in the end it doesn’t matter who or where it comes from... so long as it’s good and it's real.
- Paul Morris, music director at 97.7 HTZ-FM
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moron
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Youve gotta copy and paste that one I think. I couldnt read the article, but Ive heard reports saying that the expressions and noises she makes and
her reactions to her parents are simply reflexes.
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moron
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Six66Mike
Experts also say she isn't suffering haha that's a load. You can't go that long without food or water & have it feel great.
And the site wants me to join up before I read the link. Boo to that. |
If youre not aware of your surroundings (ie. a vegetable) then do you know whether or not youre suffering?
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SAAAAARS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by moron
Youve gotta copy and paste that one I think. I couldnt read the article, but Ive heard reports saying that the expressions and noises she makes and
her reactions to her parents are simply reflexes. |
this is what i heard too. a pro-lifer actually said to me, "SHE CAN BLINK, SHE SHOULD LIVE". what kind of argument is that? definitely reflexes.
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BDx13
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Schiavo's expressions misleading, experts say
BY JUDITH GRAHAM
Chicago Tribune
CHICAGO - (KRT) - Terri Schiavo's eyes look vacant. Her mouth hangs open. Then, her mother approaches, saying "hi baby" in a bright voice. Schiavo's
lips turn upward, and her blinking accelerates.
What do these carefully edited video clips reveal about the severely brain-damaged woman?
Nothing of any real significance, medical experts say.
Therein lies one of the most difficult-to-grasp facets of this controversial right-to-die case. What appears on the surface to be intelligent,
intelligible behavior on Schiavo's part is anything but, most physicians say.
To the contrary, the 41-year-old woman is capable only of meaningless, spontaneous responses arising from the deepest, most primitive centers of her
brain, experts suggest.
"Her facial muscles may move, but there's no feeling behind it," says Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist who examined Schiavo in 2002 and reviewed all
her medical records. "Everything you see is reflex."
Clearly, Schiavo's parents don't agree. Where doctors see muscles moving involuntarily, they see their daughter smiling. What experts call
instinctual, animal-like reactions - Schiavo's face turning toward her mother as she speaks, her eyes seeming to scan the space around her - her
parents deem signs of her feeling presence.
By releasing videos of their daughter for the world to watch, Schiavo's parents have appealed powerfully to the court of public opinion. But the
pictures that tug at people's hearts are extremely misleading, experts warn. Some physicians believe there is evidence Schiavo may have some degree of
consciousness, but they are in the minority.
"These are some of the most powerful images we've seen in American bioethics," said Laurie Zoloth, professor of medical humanities and bioethics at
Northwestern University's Feinberg School of Medicine.
"It's one of the extremely painful features of this case - that it looks so much like (Schiavo) is responding, yet everything that neurologists tell
us is she cannot respond. ... It's terrifying and terrible to imagine someone in a condition where they're physically present but completely unable to
think or feel or process information."
Certain facts are incontrovertible. Scans have shown extensive damage to Schiavo's cerebral cortex, a part of the brain essential to higher-level
functions such as cognition and consciousness. An electroencephalogram, which examined patterns of her brain's electrical activity, documented
virtually no normal response.
Because Schiavo's brain stem has remained largely intact, however, certain automatic body functions - sleeping and waking, breathing, metabolizing
nutrients, and others - are proceeding.
Blinking, startling in response to a stimulus, changing facial expressions and making occasional sounds are also among the body functions controlled
by the brain stem.
"The part of the brain responsible for these responses - smiling, crying, chewing, moaning - is still working. But the part of the brain responsible
for thinking is not," explained Dr. Ghada Ahmed, attending physician at the Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago.
Medicine calls this a "vegetative state" and considers it permanent and irreversible if a patient remains in this condition for more than a year
without showing signs of improvement. Schiavo has been severely brain injured for the past 15 years.
Crucial to the diagnosis is a thorough assessment of how aware a patient is of herself and her environment. That requires prolonged observation of the
person over days and extended conversations with family members and other caregivers, said Dr. Roger Albin, professor of neurology at the University
of Michigan.
If the person cannot follow commands, consistently interact with others or repeatedly respond to stimuli, "we conclude whatever reactions they might
have are involuntary, not purposeful," he said.
In other words, that hint of a smile is nothing more than a reflex unless Schiavo smiles frequently when her mom comes into the room. "Facial
contortions do occur that could be looked at as smiling if taken out of context," said Nathan Zasler, medical director and chief executive at
Concussion Care Centre of Virginia. "The question is, what is the context and is there any consistency in her response."
In Schiavo's case, "if you look at her eyes, she doesn't make track or make contact," said Cranford, who observed her clinically for 42 minutes in
2002. "If you ask her to do something, she can't do it. She smiled and grimaced, but it had nothing to do with me. She does it spontaneously.
"You go in the room and say `Terri' and her eyes open," Cranford continued. "That's an arousal response. If you go in and say `President Bush' the
same thing would happen."
Cranford was one of three physicians who examined Schiavo and later testified at an extensive 2002 court hearing in Florida that she was in a
persistent vegetative state. The goal was to clarify the woman's medical state and whether further treatment was warranted.
Two physicians who conducted their own exams said she had more consciousness than that diagnosis suggested.
After weighing the evidence, Florida Circuit Court Judge George Greer wrote of videos submitted as evidence: "At first blush, the video of Terri
Schiavo appearing to smile and look lovingly at her mother seemed to represent cognition. This was also true for how she followed the Mickey Mouse
balloon held by her father. The court has carefully viewed the videotapes ... and (finds) that these actions were neither consistent nor
reproducible."
Ultimately, Greer ruled that "credible evidence overwhelmingly supports the view that Terri Schiavo remains in a persistent vegetative state" and that
therapy or treatment would not alter her condition.
If I fail math, there goes my chance at a good job and a happy life full of hard work.
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BDx13
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| Quote: | Originally posted by moron
| Quote: | Originally posted by Six66Mike
Experts also say she isn't suffering haha that's a load. You can't go that long without food or water & have it feel great.
And the site wants me to join up before I read the link. Boo to that. |
If youre not aware of your surroundings (ie. a vegetable) then do you know whether or not youre suffering? |
from what i've read, when in a persistent vegetative state, one has no sense of or control over one's body.
If I fail math, there goes my chance at a good job and a happy life full of hard work.
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Jeff trhe Greek
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I'd say the parents are letting her suffer to ease they're own suffering.
Don\'t blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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moron
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well, she's dead now so time for them to start grieving.
the mess doesnt seem to be over with yet though. Let's see what sort of laws will be proposed as a result of this situation.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/03/31/schiavo.washington.ap/index.html
House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, called Schiavo's death a "moral poverty and a legal tragedy."
"This loss happened because our legal system did not protect the people who need protection most, and that will change," DeLay said. "The time will
come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior, but not today. Today we grieve, we pray, and we hope to God this fate never
befalls another."
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Six66Mike
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Here's 2 popular chaps weighing in.
Mel Gibson said she should live & doesn't appear vegetative.
The Pope in March 2004 claimed he would want to be kept alive by machines if he ever came to that & that feeding tubes was not extraordinary care to
save ones life but necessary care.
Feeding tubes are everywhere, should millions starve because they've had a tracheotemy or some shit because they can't swallow? She isn't on a
breathing machine or heart pumps so let her be.
A lot of people ask me what kind of music I like. I love "soul music". My "soul music" isn’t a style, genre or niche. It’s music that is genuine. It’s
a painful lyric, a dirty bassline, it’s a harrowing vocal, it’s feedback, it’s an anthem, it’s a love song, it’s anarchy. I’ve got my personal
favourites but in the end it doesn’t matter who or where it comes from... so long as it’s good and it's real.
- Paul Morris, music director at 97.7 HTZ-FM
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tireironsaint
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Six66Mike
Here's 2 popular chaps weighing in.
Mel Gibson said she should live & doesn't appear vegetative.
The Pope in March 2004 claimed he would want to be kept alive by machines if he ever came to that & that feeding tubes was not extraordinary care to
save ones life but necessary care.
Feeding tubes are everywhere, should millions starve because they've had a tracheotemy or some shit because they can't swallow? She isn't on a
breathing machine or heart pumps so let her be. |
Guess what? She's dead.Fuck the pope and Mel Gibson too,
what the fuck do either of them have to do with this ex-human?
Veritas odium parit
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