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newbreedbrian
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im not sure what it is about this board that attracts people who can actually have a debate instead of resorting to childish name calling and shit. i
sure am happy it is the way it is though. i think in the end it's not really about labels vs bands. it's more a question of sociology, some people
treat each other with respect and some don't. i still maintain that major labels are set up in such a way so the leeches are the ones who almost
always come out on top. i would draw a parallel between what was described in the grapes of wrath and how this works. when there were so many people
looking for work, the owners payed them next to nothing because they knew someone else would take the job to feed their family. same deal here, you
don't want to sign a shitty contract? what's wrong with you, im offering you the world. ah well, the next shitty band in line that sounds exactly the
same will be happy to sign. anways, im enjoying the discussion boys
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, ?You know, I want to set those people over there on
fire, but I?m just not close enough to get the job done.? George Carlin
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jonnynewbreed
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Mood: Quite nice actually.
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Major labels and corperations in general are set up so that the bottom line is the bottem line. They have a board, and those people on the board are
relying on this corperate venture to pay the bills so the band on the lowest end of the corperate scale gets zero consideration. It is too bad when
you see people with a DIY ethic in the beginning take on corperate ideals later on in their business's life due to $$$.
There was a great canadian film called "The Corperation" that you should check out. It likens corperate America and Canada to phychopathic
behaviours. Well worth the rental fee to see this one.
And this is definitly the most intellegant thing i've seen on the internet in a long time...except for my horrible spelling.
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MyOwnWay
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There are so many bands out there trying to become more popular. They are doing all the "right things". They have their music and business side of
things tight. They dont need labels for advertising, distribution (gets taken care of thru internet orders and constant cross country shows), pressing
or studio are all comped by themselves or from previous sales including merch. Its these bands that go to labels and get fucked. Bands like this dont
need a label, they can do their own thing. Another type of band that gets fucked is the ones who again, think daddy label will solve all of their
problems. Its not like ti was back in the "olden" days. The shady shit from record companies have been exposed time and time again. The basic ins and
the outs. So common sence can play a part with this, if the band is truly in to the music. They should be just as concerned about the "deal" they are
getting as they are about writing a good song.
I know a lot of you are in to music and even some of you are in bands currently. I'm not saying anyones deserves to get dicked, but I am saying that I
no longer completely blame labels (as I once did) for the shit that bands neglect to take seriousley. I think if a shitty deal is signed, its the
fault of the band and the label. The label for drawing up somerthing so shitty thats obviousley a dick move. And the band for not taking more
responsibility overseeing/presigning their contract.
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TTF
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Even if you sign a good contract how do you afford a lawyer to help assure that the contract is enforced if you aren't making any money as a band?
How do you argue against a label telling you that you only sold 100 copies of your album when you aren't allowed by law to subpoena pressing plant
records? I would say that for the most part the shortcomings of record labels are from inexperience, but there are also enough crooks out there to
sour me.
Many bands don't do their homework and end up in horrid 7 album deals making pennies on the dollar for their sales. This blows but buyer beware; but
for a band the size of Mastodon or Dillinger to have to struggle is criminal.
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MyOwnWay
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TTF: T
ruth its happened where the label is that inexperienced the band and/or label get dicked and noone come out on top. The worst thing I know has
happened is, I think it was mentioned in the ariticle not sure... But when labels manuever a contract so that the label own the band name rights. So
the band is fucked and could never leave. Or the labels that have been "buying out the compeition" where they sign a band and then shelf them, so
noone else picks them up. To anyone that doesnt know this, trust me it has happened and is starting happen more frequently.
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TTF
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When you sign a typical contract the label owns your name anyway. Whether you create music with that band or any other they own the rights. Not so
with your average 'indie' contract I guess but that's how the big guys get you. Our band history has shown us that even the inexperienced labels get
paid long before the band ever does, and not just recoupable losses like studio time and ads. I've also heard of some majors buying up a band just to
keep them from the cempetition, with no plans of ever releasing it. Fact or fiction, I'm not sure.
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Fat C GAMC
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I know and have known for a while that it is almost impossible to make a living on independant music and i dont think there are many bands that would
expect total financial security from playing shows to 50-300 kids a night, but i dont think that those bands should be expected to lose their asses so
they can sell the 900 records that their label is holding. I find it ridiculous that any label would want to put their bands in that position. Its
pretty common for a label to "take a chance" on a younger band by pressing 1000 and giving them %10 and paying for mastering and artwork. So in effect
the label makes a $2500 investment in a band (pressing and all) and keeps 900 CDs they can wholesale from 6.50 to 8.50 per unit or sell in their
webstore for 10 or 12. The band on the other hand gets 100 Cds to sell at 10 bucks a piece on the road. Which wont even recoup their recording costs.
Plus they make other merch for tour and invest in van that they will likely be spending nearly 600 bucks a month on in upkeep and notes on the road.
While the label sits back and reaps the benefits of their hardwork and financial loss. The label then turns around and sells them their CDs back at a
"fair price" like 50 cents below wholesale . A real fair price the price per unit the label paid in , about 2.50 a CD. So the label is making money
of the band that is pushing their product and taking the real risks. Sketch. A bands only hope for any sort of financial security (when the band
breaksdown we have a way home)on the road if their merchandise and at $10 a shirt you cant afford a car or a apartment at home. That just allows you
to survive.
There are a hundred Tony Brummels in independent music that prey on bands that are hungry, this isnt at all a major label only problem. A label only
has to move about %35 to %40 percent of a pressing to break even, and thats on a small pressing, shit gets much cheaper as the quanities get larger so
I dont buy a label saying they incur the bulk of the risk, because their chances of breaking even or profitting are much greater than the band. As far
as ads are concerned they're a joke. Lets say a label says they are going to put 2000 dollars into advertising your record and thats why they are
keeping so many records because they are putting that much more money into your CD. In actuallity they put a 1"x1" picture of your CD on a full page
ad for their marquee band that cost $1000 and they think they're halfway done.
I dont think the blame lies solely on the label because it is a business and they cant be expected t operate without the possibility of profit. A lot
of the blame lies with bands that arent business savy or that might just be to eager to release their music. No label will ever get a signature from
me on a 10 or 20 percent deal unless they throw in a few good tours and a van allowance.
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Jason the Magnificent
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Not all bands are innocent either, I have been pretty lucky thus far...but pestering a HC label for tour support/van allowance when you're selling 2
or 3 cd's a week is not necessarily an investment theyre going to chase after.
Too many people in hardcore are worried about money. In the 5 or so years I have been doing my label I have never once even came close to breaking
even on a release till the Cheech and Neglect cd's...when I pump roughly $200 a month into ads/promo stuff and bring back in around $200 a month...you
do the math. Wheres the recoup on the pressing/studio time/artwork...
In the end all a label can do is try be fair to the bands it deals with and hope for the best. There are always going to be labels ripping bands off
and there are always going to be bands expecting more out of some kid busting his ass in his spare time for no thanks and no money in return.
Its takes a lot of time and effort to promote/push bands and to be honest, with the amount of money coming in, very few bands should be complaining
about anything. When it takes 4 years to sell out a pressing of 1000 cds...whats the solution, sending the band $7.50 royalty checks every month?
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Discipline
* DRUNKEN MONKEY *
Posts: 11900
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Having never been in a band I won't claim to know how things work. But I have a question for Starkweather and The Newbreed. Do you guys deal with
the contracts and deals on your own, or do you have a lawyer or somebody do that for you? Just curious.
For the New Breed, I just bought one of your albums from the store today. Make sure you get paid.
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
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TTF
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As forStarkweather, we've used a lawyer on the new one and the last thing we did. The problem is that it doesn't really matter. Sure, you will Sign
a better contract but enforcing it is where all of the problems start. Most bands of our size don't have the money to go after a label, even a crumb
like John Dudeck. If there's enough money involved a lawyer may take the case with no $$$ up front, but for the type of money we're looking it, it's
not worth an attorneys time or effort because it's a labor intensive process and there are much easier ways for them to make dough. Our lawyer did
send Dudeck a threatening letter at one point years ago, but nothing came of it. It's a war of attrition and we have always been the one to buckle
first. It's too difficult to live both in the past and the present and we'd rather look forward. If we get taken on this deal with Second Nature,
you can bet that we will not tuck our tails between our legs (yes, we have tails) and walk away.
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newbreedbrian
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getting lawyers to go over everything would be well beyond our means, we've done everything ourselves. the deal for our first 7" was 100% verbal with
someone we completely trusted. in an ideal world they would all be like that. i really hate the "business" side of things
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, ?You know, I want to set those people over there on
fire, but I?m just not close enough to get the job done.? George Carlin
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blackoutnyhc
Junior Member
Posts: 28
Registered: 4-16-2005
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Mood: your mom scream in ecstasy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jason the Magnificent
Not all bands are innocent either, I have been pretty lucky thus far...but pestering a HC label for tour support/van allowance when you're selling 2
or 3 cd's a week is not necessarily an investment theyre going to chase after.
Too many people in hardcore are worried about money. In the 5 or so years I have been doing my label I have never once even came close to breaking
even on a release till the Cheech and Neglect cd's...when I pump roughly $200 a month into ads/promo stuff and bring back in around $200 a month...you
do the math. Wheres the recoup on the pressing/studio time/artwork...
In the end all a label can do is try be fair to the bands it deals with and hope for the best. There are always going to be labels ripping bands off
and there are always going to be bands expecting more out of some kid busting his ass in his spare time for no thanks and no money in return.
Its takes a lot of time and effort to promote/push bands and to be honest, with the amount of money coming in, very few bands should be complaining
about anything. When it takes 4 years to sell out a pressing of 1000 cds...whats the solution, sending the band $7.50 royalty checks every month?
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Yeah, I'd have to agree with this. Artists tend to forget that it's not what you press, it's what you sell- and how fast. Investing a few grand when
it takes 4 years to (possibly) make it back will not be doing an IPO anytime soon. So most of us who have been in this game long enough do it more for
love than money. But in reality we're all winos fighting over the last sip of Thunderbird - in the face of major labeldom and the Wal-Martinization of
America, even Epitaph, the 800lb gorilla of punk indies, is a minor player.
with the proliferation of digital technology enabling everyone to be a band or label at a lower cost (and reducing the barriers to entry into music)
the supply of "content" is way higher than it used to be.
There were only a handfull of labels doing this In the early days of Blackout! At that time, I could sell a very signficiant amount of records from
ads in Flipside, Suburban Voice, MRR, and a postcard mailing to a few hundred kids. At this point, labels need to spend 20x that in full color
REVOLVER or AP ads just to sell 1/4 of the records. The kids who buy records have an increased need to be PUSHED, SOLD and MARKETED to. It's a rough
game on all sides.
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Fat C GAMC
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jason the Magnificent
Not all bands are innocent either, I have been pretty lucky thus far...but pestering a HC label for tour support/van allowance when you're selling 2
or 3 cd's a week is not necessarily an investment theyre going to chase after.
Too many people in hardcore are worried about money. In the 5 or so years I have been doing my label I have never once even came close to breaking
even on a release till the Cheech and Neglect cd's...when I pump roughly $200 a month into ads/promo stuff and bring back in around $200 a month...you
do the math. Wheres the recoup on the pressing/studio time/artwork...
In the end all a label can do is try be fair to the bands it deals with and hope for the best. There are always going to be labels ripping bands off
and there are always going to be bands expecting more out of some kid busting his ass in his spare time for no thanks and no money in return.
Its takes a lot of time and effort to promote/push bands and to be honest, with the amount of money coming in, very few bands should be complaining
about anything. When it takes 4 years to sell out a pressing of 1000 cds...whats the solution, sending the band $7.50 royalty checks every month?
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thats brings me to the point that labels should be responsible with who they invest in. You cant give every band tour support and there is no reason
to offer to support to a band of weekend warriors, also you cant bitch about your lack of return if you decide to work with a band that plays to the
same 500 kids a couple times a month.Hype in one area doesnt mean that hype will follow. Those are the bands that should take the 10% or take their
own risk and release their own shit. I was reffering to touring bands, bands that will work as hard and probably a lot harder than the label to push
the product. As for the you mentioning recording costs, there are only a handful of labels that cover recording for their bands, hell victory doesnt
even cover recording for some of thier bands, eulogy and hand of hope either(but they do offer tour support).
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GabeTexasGAMC
* GROWN *
Posts: 1828
Registered: 2-22-2004
Location: Texas
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thats why im glad i will never have to deal with ay of thi shit.
scumbags band that no one will want to put shit out for because were lazy as fuck.
you put it out and well keep making it. If someone gav us moeny to record wedlowing it beer and crap. and spend a little on recording.
whatever.\its hardcore, who the fuck cares what the fuck so and so spends on a band.
if we were in it for the money wed be playing country or ossomething.
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blackoutnyhc
Junior Member
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My personal goal would be to build a real life for myself and for my bands out of this. It's happened a few months here and there, but not enough on a
consistent basis where I didn't at certain times need another source of income to cover my "habit" of putting out records.
I don't want weekend warriors for Blackout! primarily becuase I never have been one myself. When some 21 year old explains that he's "a grown up now
and needs to make sure his bills are paid before he tours" I want to puke and slap him. If you want security pack up your guitar, get your ink zapped
off, and join the rat race. (Which is not really as secure as you think anyway.) Everyone is so concerned about the money and forgets about what else
this whole thing brings to our lives but like I said in my previous post... we're all paupers grasping at pennies.
Maybe I'm just addicted to the chaos of it all and need to speak to a therapist.
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Todd
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Registered: 5-20-2004
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"I don't want weekend warriors for Blackout! primarily becuase I never have been one myself. When some 21 year old explains that he's "a grown up now
and needs to make sure his bills are paid before he tours" I want to puke and slap him. If you want security pack up your guitar, get your ink zapped
off, and join the rat race. (Which is not really as secure as you think anyway.) Everyone is so concerned about the money and forgets about what else
this whole thing brings to our lives but like I said in my previous post... we're all paupers grasping at pennies."
It sounds like I better sell my guitars. My only problem is that so far the rat race doesn't want me. I think it takes a certain amount of common
sense and a sense of self preseration to not drive around the US for 75 bucks a night. I also dislike most people so much that the idea of going out
and having to talk to retards every night, all the while wanting to kill them, would be a fate worse than death.
Speaking of the 'rat race', I've met way more people that blew me away in the field of medicine than I have in 25 years of being involved in hardcore.
There are very few Darby Crash's, Vic Bondi's, and Paul Bearer's in this little world. I love the rat race if the rat race means getting the
opportunity to work in an ER in the South Bronx or treat kids in Pediatrics and I didn't get to this point by being privileged, I got here by sinking
into $100,000 in debt and working my balls off.
Being able to play in Starkweather is the same kind of privilege as practicing medicine and I don't think my life would be worth living if I had to
pick between the two.
True til payday, Todd.
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blackoutnyhc
Junior Member
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Todd
"I don't want weekend warriors for Blackout! primarily becuase I never have been one myself. When some 21 year old explains that he's "a grown up now
and needs to make sure his bills are paid before he tours" I want to puke and slap him. If you want security pack up your guitar, get your ink zapped
off, and join the rat race. (Which is not really as secure as you think anyway.) Everyone is so concerned about the money and forgets about what else
this whole thing brings to our lives but like I said in my previous post... we're all paupers grasping at pennies."
It sounds like I better sell my guitars. My only problem is that so far the rat race doesn't want me. I think it takes a certain amount of common
sense and a sense of self preseration to not drive around the US for 75 bucks a night. I also dislike most people so much that the idea of going out
and having to talk to retards every night, all the while wanting to kill them, would be a fate worse than death.
Speaking of the 'rat race', I've met way more people that blew me away in the field of medicine than I have in 25 years of being involved in hardcore.
There are very few Darby Crash's, Vic Bondi's, and Paul Bearer's in this little world. I love the rat race if the rat race means getting the
opportunity to work in an ER in the South Bronx or treat kids in Pediatrics and I didn't get to this point by being privileged, I got here by sinking
into $100,000 in debt and working my balls off.
Being able to play in Starkweather is the same kind of privilege as practicing medicine and I don't think my life would be worth living if I had to
pick between the two.
True til payday, Todd. |
My diatribe is talking about career-ist bands, who make incredible financial demands, want lightning in bottle and have delusions they will be the
next ______________ becuase they played shows with them. When I talk to a band I tell them the following: We're in what amounts to a three legged,
race. We're tied to each other. If you want to put out a cool record and do regional shows.. don't expect to be on the cover of AP anytime soon. If
you WANT that, and want ME to support it.. then you need to step up, and touring until your ass bleeds is the first step. Believe me, I've done more
than my share of friendship releases for bands that barely played out of their practice space.
I actually think we're in agreement. You don't view HC as just about the money, neither do I. Your ability to have a career and life outside it
brings a purity to it. (It also doesn't mean you shouldn't be paid for the 15,000 ep's you sold).
Due to a partnership with a total and complete asshole, I almost packed it in this year. I had to tough it out, do some legal wrangling, and luckily I
came out on top. Blackout! is a part of me, just like your bands are a part of you. Thinking that I had to pack it in becuase of business made me
sick. But again that's because it's more than the chance to "meet chicks", "get rich" and "be on MTV" for us. Like the Bondis, Bearers, and Crash's of
the world- we're lifers in this particular scene in spite of it's often childish shortcomings.
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Todd
Posts: 313
Registered: 5-20-2004
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Right on, man. Great post. Business will never be th reason we stop plaing either, and apparently neither will the fact that we are embarrassingly
old. 15 years in Starkweather and not one girl has ever come up to me after a show! It probably didn't help that my girlfriend/wife played bass for
more than 10 of those 15.
We expect very little from a label these days; a couple bucks to record (although for the new album we've paid the bulk since we went over), a couple
mp3's, a couple ads, and if you make some $$$, throw a little our way. We've been promoting ourselves for so long that until recently we wrote our
own bios, one sheets, made our own ads, created the artwork for merch and got the shirts made, and paid for our rental van out of our own pockets. To
be honest with you I'd continue doing that because I HAVE to play.
I guess I have a really hard time understanding 'careerist' bands. That thinking is so foreign to me that I just can't wrap my head around it. I've
known bands like that, played in bands with people like that, but I just don't understand. That relentless hold I have on DIY and the purity of this
music is the only 'hardcore' thing I can lay claim to anymore.
I'm glad you decided not to pack it in. Todd.
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