| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5 |
Siczine.com
Posting Freak
Posts: 2351
Registered: 9-6-2005
Location: Philly
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cynical
|
|
Isn't me critiquing atheism the same thing as Dawkins critiquing religion? Why does he have more right than me to state his problems with "religion"
yet its such a big problem for me stating my problems with atheism. And you act like I have no idea whatsoever about what atheism is about; its about
not believing in god because it can't proven. That is stupid to me.
|
|
|
tireironsaint
* BANNED *
Posts: 4299
Registered: 5-14-2003
Location: Colorado
Member Is Offline
Mood: Beltones
|
|
Believe what you wanna believe, man. Unfortunately, just like with religion, believing something doesn't make it true. Yes, there are some atheist
organizations, but none of them are going to require people to belong to them in order for those people to call themselves atheists. I still don't
know what the hell the whole organization thing is supposed to mean to you. I'm guessing you got that from the phrase "organized religion", but there
are all kinds of organizations both secular and religious and none of that pertains to this discussion.
Where does your mention of the NAACP come into things? I mentioned people of various races marching, not any specific group such as the NAACP. Just
because they may march doesn't mean that everybody who marches in a racially motivated march is a member or even of that race.
Veritas odium parit
|
|
|
Siczine.com
Posting Freak
Posts: 2351
Registered: 9-6-2005
Location: Philly
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cynical
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by tireironsaint
Are you insanely high? How is reliance on provable facts "blind faith"? What organization are you referring to and what do you not get about the fact
that atheism isn't about adherence to anything other than what is or isn't provable? |
No I am quite sober thank you very much! But thanks again for stooping down to insults.
Provable facts? It wasn't that long ago that we thought the earth was flat and the earth was the center of the universe.
And how is saying there is no god a "provable fact", that doesn't seem very scientific to me.
|
|
|
tireironsaint
* BANNED *
Posts: 4299
Registered: 5-14-2003
Location: Colorado
Member Is Offline
Mood: Beltones
|
|
It's not the same at all because you are trying to argue something that makes no sense. You say you aren't religious and yet claim it's stupid to not
believe in something that can't be proven. What the fuck does that mean? We can't prove that there aren't invisible, incorporeal beings floating
around us all the time, but by your logic we should still believe in them.
Veritas odium parit
|
|
|
Siczine.com
Posting Freak
Posts: 2351
Registered: 9-6-2005
Location: Philly
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cynical
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by tireironsaint
It's not the same at all because you are trying to argue something that makes no sense. You say you aren't religious and yet claim it's stupid to not
believe in something that can't be proven. What the fuck does that mean? We can't prove that there aren't invisible, incorporeal beings floating
around us all the time, but by your logic we should still believe in them. |
I said nothing about believing in anything. But you're saying just because you can't see it, you shouldn't believe in it. That isn't logical at all.
"My stance on all religions is that none of them really know what the fuck they are talking about. And atheists I will never get. They hate on a
religion because they can't prove that there is a god but can any atheist prove there is not a god? Hell no. "
You got so heated with that statement. You act like I am incoherent and unintelligent but I think my statement has some validity to it. Atheism does
hate/have a problem with religion, and the main thing is because that religion can't prove their side of the story but how can an atheist
scientifically prove theirs? They can't.
Yet I'm high and have no idea what I'm talking about right?
|
|
|
tireironsaint
* BANNED *
Posts: 4299
Registered: 5-14-2003
Location: Colorado
Member Is Offline
Mood: Beltones
|
|
Once again, read what I wrote. How many times do I have to say that were it proven or provable that there is a god atheists would believe in it? It's
not "believing there is no god" it is NOT believing that there is a god. It is a lack of belief in something, not a belief in a lack of something. I
never said it was provable that there is no god, in fact I said it is NOT provable. It is impossible to actually prove that there is and it is
possible to prove that it is highly unlikely for such a being to exist, but it is as of yet, impossible to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt either
way.
As for insults, you've claimed repeatedly that atheism is stupid. That's insulting, not to mention flat out ignorant. I apologize if I offended you by
suggesting you were high, but your avatar and numerous posts on this board all indicate that you like to get high on a regular basis.
Veritas odium parit
|
|
|
Discipline
* DRUNKEN MONKEY *
Posts: 11900
Registered: 9-8-2004
Location: Over here
Member Is Offline
Mood: The Alley Dukes
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Siczine.com
Problem is, its not merely a label. It is an organization in one way or another. It wasn't one person that went to the Supreme Court to get prayer
out of school.
And like I said, I am not religious in the least but atheist have no more right saying there is no god as any other religion saying there is a god.
How do they know? Not like science hasn't been proven wrong, many, many times. What's right today may be completely false tomorrow.
|
Taking prayer out of public schools was a cause supported by many who weren't atheists. The problem people had with prayer in public schools is that
only one religion was represented. Many religious groups worked to have prayer taken out of school because it meant their children were excluded and
therefore made to stick out. In our oh so tolerant society sticking out can lead to ridicule and prejudice from other kids.
I myself am an atheist, and I support no prayer in school, as not everybody believes in the same things. Church and family are the ones that should
be teaching faith to children, not schools, unless it a religious school by charter. At the same time, I don't support taking any mention of God out
of Canada's national anthem, from our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, etc., because those are the foundations upon which Canada was created. I fully
believe we should respect those traditions because that is our nations history, even if I don't believe in it.
In our courts you only swear on a bible if you choose to. There are oaths for every religion a person may be, and affirmations for atheists such as
myself. I had to testify in court once more than a decade ago, and I refused to swear on a bible. The judge asked me why out of curiosity, and I
told him that swearing to a god I don't believe in would be perjury in itself.
All things aside, I don't belong to any atheist organizations or websites, I usually try to avoid discussions about religion with people because, like
some atheists, I am strongly anti-religion. The only use I have for religion is in a historical perspective, as the history of religions can be very
interesting reading. Not believing in god doesn't put me into any religion or organization, it just means I don't believe.
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
|
|
|
Siczine.com
Posting Freak
Posts: 2351
Registered: 9-6-2005
Location: Philly
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cynical
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by tireironsaint
Once again, read what I wrote. How many times do I have to say that were it proven or provable that there is a god atheists would believe in it?
|
That makes no sense! Atheists want to believe in what is provable and they would believe in god if it was proven right? Well then, why don't atheists
just say we don't know if there is a god or not, but religion can and often does infringe on others?
|
|
|
Discipline
* DRUNKEN MONKEY *
Posts: 11900
Registered: 9-8-2004
Location: Over here
Member Is Offline
Mood: The Alley Dukes
|
|
It's hard to believe in anything Christians say, (and I think Jews as well, but I could be wrong) when they claim the Earth is only about 6000 years
old when we know without a doubt it's millions of years old.
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
|
|
|
tireironsaint
* BANNED *
Posts: 4299
Registered: 5-14-2003
Location: Colorado
Member Is Offline
Mood: Beltones
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Siczine.com
| Quote: | Originally posted by tireironsaint
It's not the same at all because you are trying to argue something that makes no sense. You say you aren't religious and yet claim it's stupid to not
believe in something that can't be proven. What the fuck does that mean? We can't prove that there aren't invisible, incorporeal beings floating
around us all the time, but by your logic we should still believe in them. |
I said nothing about believing in anything. But you're saying just because you can't see it, you shouldn't believe in it. That isn't logical at all.
"My stance on all religions is that none of them really know what the fuck they are talking about. And atheists I will never get. They hate on a
religion because they can't prove that there is a god but can any atheist prove there is not a god? Hell no. "
You got so heated with that statement. You act like I am incoherent and unintelligent but I think my statement has some validity to it. Atheism does
hate/have a problem with religion, and the main thing is because that religion can't prove their side of the story but how can an atheist
scientifically prove theirs? They can't.
Yet I'm high and have no idea what I'm talking about right? |
Seriously? Where did I say that JUST because you can't see something you shouldn't believe in it? I believe that bacteria and many other things I
can't see exist and have NEVER said anything to the contrary.
As for everything else in your post here, you keep going round and round over the same few things that you just seem unwilling or unable to wrap your
head around. Atheism is a lack of belief in god, period. It is not a conspiracy out to convert anyone or prove to any person of any faith that they
are wrong. Sure, anybody who considers themselves an atheist may be willing to debate ideas with a religious person if asked, but there is no agenda
to try to convert anyone.
How are you ok with religious people believing their doctrines, but think that people who disbelieve are stupid? That's an untenable position,
ESPECIALLY if you claim to be non-religious. I can understand wanting to say that you don't know whether or not god exists and wanting to leave it at
that, I felt that way for many years. However, if you truly feel that way, shouldn't the possibility that there is no god be just as likely as the
possibility that there is? How is it more "stupid" to not believe in an unprovable possibility than to believe in it?
I can completely understand the reasoning of someone who is immersed in their faith saying that atheism makes no sense to them. If they truly believe
in their god, then someone who does not is going to be hard to understand. What I can't comprehend is why you feel the need to not only blatantly
insult the idea of atheism, but to try to define it in a way that is contrary to what those of us who consider ourselves to be atheists would define
it.
Veritas odium parit
|
|
|
tireironsaint
* BANNED *
Posts: 4299
Registered: 5-14-2003
Location: Colorado
Member Is Offline
Mood: Beltones
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Siczine.com
| Quote: | Originally posted by tireironsaint
Once again, read what I wrote. How many times do I have to say that were it proven or provable that there is a god atheists would believe in it?
|
That makes no sense! Atheists want to believe in what is provable and they would believe in god if it was proven right? Well then, why don't atheists
just say we don't know if there is a god or not, but religion can and often does infringe on others? |
How does that make no sense? Atheist make the choice to believe that there is no god based on the FACT that there is no possible way to prove
otherwise. What I said above is that IF there were some way to prove that a god exists then we would accept that proof and change our minds. As you
mentioned, people used to believe that the earth was flat, it has been proven that it is in fact round and now people generally believe that it is
round.
Veritas odium parit
|
|
|
DaveMoral
Posting Freak
Posts: 4334
Registered: 1-24-2006
Location: Ardmore PA
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
It's hard to believe in anything Christians say, (and I think Jews as well, but I could be wrong) when they claim the Earth is only about 6000 years
old when we know without a doubt it's millions of years old. |
I was watching a thing once with a Rabbi talking about the 6 days thing in the Book of Genesis and linking it with the relativity of time and all
that. Basically he was saying something about there being calculations that on the scale of the universe or the galaxy or something that 6000 years
would be right for a galactic or universal year. I can't remember exactly, it was a while back and on some Philly college TV station.
6,000 years but not earth years or something. A year is different for us on earth than it is for even Mars or Pluto... and that's just with regards to
how long it takes for them to get around the sun. Let alone how long it takes for our solar system to rotate around the center of our galaxy... and of
course the galaxy to rotate around the theoretical center of the universe. And that's just rotations... that's not even getting into the theory of
relativity and how the perception of time is actually different depending upon gravity and such.
Anyways... this thread used to be cool.
|
|
|
upyerbum
Posting Freak
Posts: 3226
Registered: 10-14-2005
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Condemned 84
|
|
The more I find out, the less I know. Answers lead to more questions, but one thing I have come to understand is that there has to be some driving
force, call it what you will, behind the whole mess. The Gnostics didn't even like to use the word god because it immediately conjures an image in our
minds. But how can we imagine something beyond our comprehension? I believe science will eventually answer these questions, but I don't think it will
be the answer they want, and I don't think it will be the answer the "religious" camps are after either.
Well, its this place where nobody works, and the pigs don\'t give you any shit. Everyone smokes weed and gets drunk all day. Its a place where
cunts like me and you can truly take it easy and relax. Know what I mean?
|
|
|
defstarsteve
Posting Freak
Posts: 3505
Registered: 11-19-2003
Member Is Offline
|
|
as someone who doesn’t believe in shit....
I will let you know there is no secret club of atheists or secret hand shakes...
I don't care what the saint believes
or what any other person believes
but since we both don't believe, does that mean we get tax exempt status...
no not at all....
our lack of beliefs doesn’t mean we are the same, it just means we are not like those who do have beliefs
and anyone can register a web domain, and .org doesn’t mean shit....
just because a group of people who have their Sundays free to play soccer in the park,
doesn’t mean they are speaking of how much they hate religion
they talk about how much they like playing soccer in the park...
does that make them a religion...?
next up for discussion
anarchist...
political party or lack of political party...
vegetarians the next big religion
our lack of a belief in meat eating makes us meat eaters because we refuse to eat meat...
|
|
|
DaveMoral
Posting Freak
Posts: 4334
Registered: 1-24-2006
Location: Ardmore PA
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by upyerbum
The more I find out, the less I know. Answers lead to more questions, but one thing I have come to understand is that there has to be some driving
force, call it what you will, behind the whole mess. The Gnostics didn't even like to use the word god because it immediately conjures an image in our
minds. But how can we imagine something beyond our comprehension? I believe science will eventually answer these questions, but I don't think it will
be the answer they want, and I don't think it will be the answer the "religious" camps are after either. |
I doubt science will ever be able to answer anything but questions about the material world. If the driving Force were non-material science wouldn't
know shit. They'd just be like, "look, we ran up against a brick wall in all this and we know that this final thing we found that underlies all the
material things isn't driving it all... we don't have the answer." The interesting thing to me is how much quantum physics is starting to sound like
the language of metaphysics and mysticism these days.
You should read some Ibn al-'Arabi stuff dude. Sufis consider him the Master of Masters and that last Muhammadan saint. He's got some pretty cool
stuff on the diversity of belief and how our beliefs are all ultimately not the full truth of things because the Absolute Truth is ultimately
indescribable and incomprehensible and while we might have glimpses and kernals of Truth in our various beliefs and religions... specifically those
believed to have been revealed by the Real to prophets... they ultimately don't tell the full reality of the Essence of God.
That's not even just a Sufi belief amongst Muslims, it's pretty much right out there on the surface for Shi'a Muslims anyways. At least the idea that
we cannot comprehend God in full, and to attempt to even contemplate the Essence of God will ultimately mislead us as to the true nature of God.
Sufis had a tendancy to refer to God almost exclusively as "the Real" or "the Truth"(al-Haqq in Arabic). Even the use of "He" in Arabic, and I believe
in Hebrew, has more to do with a lack of an "it" in Semtic languages rather than actually wanted to make God male.
|
|
|
Siczine.com
Posting Freak
Posts: 2351
Registered: 9-6-2005
Location: Philly
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cynical
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by tireironsaint
As for insults, you've claimed repeatedly that atheism is stupid. That's insulting, not to mention flat out ignorant. I apologize if I offended you by
suggesting you were high, but your avatar and numerous posts on this board all indicate that you like to get high on a regular basis.
|
I just reread this and realized you've pulled something out of thin air. Nowhere did I say, even once, that atheism is stupid, yet you say I said it
repeatedly. I said one thing that you interpreted to be "stupid". I just said it makes no sense, and to me it really doesn't. Just like how I think
straight edge is a pointless label to give yourself, others disagree obviously but that doesn't make my disagreement invalid. General society is the
one concerned with labels, doesn't mean you have to. So you stooped to insults for no reason. And I don't get why you're so mad about me having a
problem with atheists especially if it's not a religion right? It is just a thought process is it not?
I will close on this; you don't agree with me, I don't agree with you. End of story. Sorry it took me so long to say that.
|
|
|
tireironsaint
* BANNED *
Posts: 4299
Registered: 5-14-2003
Location: Colorado
Member Is Offline
Mood: Beltones
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Siczine.com
Isn't me critiquing atheism the same thing as Dawkins critiquing religion? Why does he have more right than me to state his problems with "religion"
yet its such a big problem for me stating my problems with atheism. And you act like I have no idea whatsoever about what atheism is about; its about
not believing in god because it can't proven. That is stupid to me. |
Veritas odium parit
|
|
|
Siczine.com
Posting Freak
Posts: 2351
Registered: 9-6-2005
Location: Philly
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cynical
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
| Quote: | Originally posted by upyerbum
The more I find out, the less I know. Answers lead to more questions, but one thing I have come to understand is that there has to be some driving
force, call it what you will, behind the whole mess. The Gnostics didn't even like to use the word god because it immediately conjures an image in our
minds. But how can we imagine something beyond our comprehension? I believe science will eventually answer these questions, but I don't think it will
be the answer they want, and I don't think it will be the answer the "religious" camps are after either. |
I doubt science will ever be able to answer anything but questions about the material world. If the driving Force were non-material science wouldn't
know shit. They'd just be like, "look, we ran up against a brick wall in all this and we know that this final thing we found that underlies all the
material things isn't driving it all... we don't have the answer." The interesting thing to me is how much quantum physics is starting to sound like
the language of metaphysics and mysticism these days.
You should read some Ibn al-'Arabi stuff dude. Sufis consider him the Master of Masters and that last Muhammadan saint. He's got some pretty cool
stuff on the diversity of belief and how our beliefs are all ultimately not the full truth of things because the Absolute Truth is ultimately
indescribable and incomprehensible and while we might have glimpses and kernals of Truth in our various beliefs and religions... specifically those
believed to have been revealed by the Real to prophets... they ultimately don't tell the full reality of the Essence of God.
That's not even just a Sufi belief amongst Muslims, it's pretty much right out there on the surface for Shi'a Muslims anyways. At least the idea that
we cannot comprehend God in full, and to attempt to even contemplate the Essence of God will ultimately mislead us as to the true nature of God.
Sufis had a tendancy to refer to God almost exclusively as "the Real" or "the Truth"(al-Haqq in Arabic). Even the use of "He" in Arabic, and I believe
in Hebrew, has more to do with a lack of an "it" in Semtic languages rather than actually wanted to make God male. |
Even though I don't agree with sufism, Rumi was an amazing poet and had a way with words. Though I know its much different reading it in english than
arabic, it is still impressive.
|
|
|
Siczine.com
Posting Freak
Posts: 2351
Registered: 9-6-2005
Location: Philly
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cynical
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by tireironsaint
| Quote: | Originally posted by Siczine.com
Isn't me critiquing atheism the same thing as Dawkins critiquing religion? Why does he have more right than me to state his problems with "religion"
yet its such a big problem for me stating my problems with atheism. And you act like I have no idea whatsoever about what atheism is about; its about
not believing in god because it can't proven. That is stupid to me. |
|
ah okay, you got me.
But I don't think me calling atheism stupid is ignorant. That'd be like me getting ass hurt because someone said football is stupid. Speaking of
which time to go watch the IGGLES!
|
|
|
tireironsaint
* BANNED *
Posts: 4299
Registered: 5-14-2003
Location: Colorado
Member Is Offline
Mood: Beltones
|
|
Give it up man. You got "ass hurt" because I suggested you might be stoned. You actually like to get stoned, don't you? You, on the other hand,
claimed that something you don't know anything about is stupid. Stupid actually means characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish;
senseless. While atheism is something that is by definition about thinking something through and asking questions.
I'm not angry or "ass hurt" about what you had to say on the matter, just engaging in debate. That's kinda what we do on this board, right? Somebody
posts an opinion and other people reply with their own. I'm not here trying to convince you or anyone else that atheism is the path for them, but when
someone wants to make ill informed statements about something I actually consider to be a part of my life I'm gonna go ahead and try to explain the
truth about it.
Veritas odium parit
|
|
|
Siczine.com
Posting Freak
Posts: 2351
Registered: 9-6-2005
Location: Philly
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cynical
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by tireironsaint
Give it up man. You got "ass hurt" because I suggested you might be stoned. You actually like to get stoned, don't you? You, on the other hand,
claimed that something you don't know anything about is stupid. Stupid actually means characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish;
senseless. While atheism is something that is by definition about thinking something through and asking questions.
I'm not angry or "ass hurt" about what you had to say on the matter, just engaging in debate. That's kinda what we do on this board, right? Somebody
posts an opinion and other people reply with their own. I'm not here trying to convince you or anyone else that atheism is the path for them, but when
someone wants to make ill informed statements about something I actually consider to be a part of my life I'm gonna go ahead and try to explain the
truth about it. |
I'm not the one that started insults. Me saying atheism is stupid is no more ignorant than when Discipline said something about religion being
fairytales and I don't feel either are ignorant.
Have you read every line of every text of all the religions you refute; I fucking doubt it. It's not like the the things I said aren't completely
unfounded. You're stubborn in your beliefs as I'm stubborn in my beliefs.
And you still never really told me what atheism is. Again, it's not an organization, not a religion, so what is it?
|
|
|
tireironsaint
* BANNED *
Posts: 4299
Registered: 5-14-2003
Location: Colorado
Member Is Offline
Mood: Beltones
|
|
It's not a thing like that at all. I've explained over and over that all it consists of is not believing in god or anything outside of provable fact.
That's it. It's not a set of dogmatic rules to follow, it's not an organized group of people trying to convert others to join them (although as we
discussed, there are some groups of atheists who organize in order to achieve some goal or another), it's not a group of people who all agree on their
beliefs, it's not even a group of people who necessarily share the same beliefs aside from the fact that they refuse to believe in something that
cannot be proven. It's the idea that everything can be explained through natural phenomena, period. It is, as the quote I took from the link you found
earlier said, being without god. That's what the word atheist means, that's what it means to be an atheist.
Veritas odium parit
|
|
|
tireironsaint
* BANNED *
Posts: 4299
Registered: 5-14-2003
Location: Colorado
Member Is Offline
Mood: Beltones
|
|
Have I read every line written in support of every religion? No, of course not and neither has even the most devout member/priest/holy man/whatever
you wanna call it of any of those religions. It's not possible to do. It's also not necessary. If you read any one version of just the bible, to pick
the most popular candidate in this country, you cannot help but run into contradiction after contradiction and unprovable event after unprovable
event. The bible itself can't even be used as the moral guide that christians will tell you it is as it's full of instances where people are killed
for such things as worshipping a different god. The god in the bible killed everyone in the world except for one family because he thought they were
too evil. Do I need to read everything written about that religion to decide that it makes no sense? That's just a ridiculously small bit of info that
can be learned in two minutes of flipping through one book and yet the majority of staunch christians would tell you that the bible is the literal
word of god and is infallible.
Veritas odium parit
|
|
|
tireironsaint
* BANNED *
Posts: 4299
Registered: 5-14-2003
Location: Colorado
Member Is Offline
Mood: Beltones
|
|
Discipline didn't say that religion is a fairy tale, he used fairy tales as an example of something he didn't believe in to explain that he isn't a
member of an "anti-fairy tale group" just as he isn't a member of an "anti-religion" group because he's an atheist.
Veritas odium parit
|
|
|
tireironsaint
* BANNED *
Posts: 4299
Registered: 5-14-2003
Location: Colorado
Member Is Offline
Mood: Beltones
|
|
And whether you agree with it or not, saying atheism is stupid is an ignorant statement. I'm not calling you an ignorant person by saying that, but
that's like a kid who gets frustrated in school and says math (or reading, or biology, or whatever subject) is stupid.
Veritas odium parit
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5 |
![[*]](images/thorp/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
