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Vanilla Gorilla
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Posts: 1120
Registered: 6-2-2009
Location: City of Oaks
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The Middle East is still in the dark ages
A man was condemned to death by beheading on a conviction of "sorcery". Seriousely what the fuck is going on over there.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/03/31/saudi.arabia.sorce...
CNN) -- A Lebanese man charged with sorcery and sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia is scheduled to be beheaded on Friday, the man's lawyer said
Wednesday.
May El Khansa, the attorney for Ali Hussain Sibat, told CNN that she and Sibat's family were informed about the upcoming execution. She said she heard
from a source in Saudi Arabia with knowledge of the case and the proceedings that Saudi authorities "will carry out the execution."
The Saudi Ministry of Justice could not immediately be reached for comment on the matter.
El Khansa said she has appealed to Lebanon's prime minister, Saad Hariri, and president, Michel Suleiman, to stop the execution. Amnesty
International, the human rights group, has called on Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah to block it as well.
TV presenter gets death sentence for 'sorcery'
Sibat is the former host of a popular call-in show that aired on Beirut-based satellite TV channel "Sheherazade." According to his lawyer, Sibat would
predict the future on his show and give out advice to his audience.
El Khansa told CNN her client was arrested by Saudi Arabia's religious police (known as the Mutawa'een) and charged with sorcery while visiting the
country in May 2008. Sibat was in Saudi Arabia to perform the Islamic religious pilgrimage known as Umra.
Sibat was then put on trial, and in November 2009, a court in the Saudi city of Medina found him guilty and sentenced him to death.
According to El Khansa, Sibat appealed the verdict. The case was taken up by the Court of Appeal in the Saudi city of Mecca on the grounds that the
initial verdict was "premature."
El Khansa tells CNN that the Mecca appeals court then sent the case back to the original court for reconsideration, stipulating that all charges made
against Sibat needed to be verified and that he should be given a chance to repent.
On March 10, judges in Medina upheld their initial verdict, meaning Sibat is once again sentenced to be executed.
"The Medina court refused the sentence of the appeals court," said El Khansa, adding her client will appeal the verdict once more.
Well I've got a feeling I'm gonna get mine in. Retribution let the games begin.
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wez138
Senior Member
Posts: 651
Registered: 12-1-2009
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Mood: TMMB's.
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I can honestly say i am not surprised or shocked...What an horrendous country, I feel sorry for people who are born in these kind of country's...No
clowns or magic acts for your birthday!!! Fuck that...
Living a life kept shut by a dream,
I'm reaching out to grasp my reality.
Hands of time wrap tight around my neck, and hit me so hard,
leaving me eyes black.
staring at a ceiling,
wondering why i never left,
penning words in a notebook,
wondering why haven't slept.
sanity is tapping in a cell
inside my fucking head.
begging for redemption
after hearing what was said.
the nights, they will not sleep
cause the days, have played for keeps.
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M.Alki
Member
Posts: 301
Registered: 6-15-2009
Location: London, UK
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I wouldnt say that is grounds to say that it's a horrendous country.
I am not disagreeing that story is totally fucked up but shit like that has happened in other places across Asia and Africa too and just not been as
publicised. It happens, it's fucked, but doesn't mean the whole country is.
I have been to a few places over that way and it was actually awesome.
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wez138
Senior Member
Posts: 651
Registered: 12-1-2009
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Mood: TMMB's.
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I think you missed the joke...But like anywhere on this earth within any country its all pro's and con's and what's happening to that poor guy is a
for sure con.
Living a life kept shut by a dream,
I'm reaching out to grasp my reality.
Hands of time wrap tight around my neck, and hit me so hard,
leaving me eyes black.
staring at a ceiling,
wondering why i never left,
penning words in a notebook,
wondering why haven't slept.
sanity is tapping in a cell
inside my fucking head.
begging for redemption
after hearing what was said.
the nights, they will not sleep
cause the days, have played for keeps.
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Mark Lind
Posting Freak
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Keep in mind that it's less than 20 years since both Ozzy Osbourne and Judas Priest were each brought to court for committing a form of sorcery.....
subliminal lyrics in rock n' roll music.
All religious groups scare the shit out of me.
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newbreedbrian
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Disgusting. Yet another example of why the world would be better without religion.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, ?You know, I want to set those people over there on
fire, but I?m just not close enough to get the job done.? George Carlin
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Discipline
* DRUNKEN MONKEY *
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| Quote: | Originally posted by newbreedbrian
Disgusting. Yet another example of why the world would be better without religion. |
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
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BKT
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As SOD said. FUCK THE MIDDLE EAST!!!
BKT.
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wez138
Senior Member
Posts: 651
Registered: 12-1-2009
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Mood: TMMB's.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BKT
As SOD said. FUCK THE MIDDLE EAST!!!
BKT. |
System of a down said that!!
Bloody hell.
Living a life kept shut by a dream,
I'm reaching out to grasp my reality.
Hands of time wrap tight around my neck, and hit me so hard,
leaving me eyes black.
staring at a ceiling,
wondering why i never left,
penning words in a notebook,
wondering why haven't slept.
sanity is tapping in a cell
inside my fucking head.
begging for redemption
after hearing what was said.
the nights, they will not sleep
cause the days, have played for keeps.
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morgan
Posting Freak
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Location: Seguin, TX
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wez138
| Quote: | Originally posted by BKT
As SOD said. FUCK THE MIDDLE EAST!!!
BKT. |
System of a down said that!!
Bloody hell. |
S.O.D. Stormtroopers of Death
Support the arts, shoot a rapper.
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wez138
Senior Member
Posts: 651
Registered: 12-1-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: TMMB's.
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What's that noise?
Living a life kept shut by a dream,
I'm reaching out to grasp my reality.
Hands of time wrap tight around my neck, and hit me so hard,
leaving me eyes black.
staring at a ceiling,
wondering why i never left,
penning words in a notebook,
wondering why haven't slept.
sanity is tapping in a cell
inside my fucking head.
begging for redemption
after hearing what was said.
the nights, they will not sleep
cause the days, have played for keeps.
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Six66Mike
Posting Freak
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Despite having crazy laws (every country has crazy laws) Saudi Arabia only killed slightly more people than the US last year according to http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/03/30/amnesty-china-execu...
Iraq under US control has second highest after China where official numbers are not known but probably rather high.
A lot of people ask me what kind of music I like. I love "soul music". My "soul music" isn’t a style, genre or niche. It’s music that is genuine. It’s
a painful lyric, a dirty bassline, it’s a harrowing vocal, it’s feedback, it’s an anthem, it’s a love song, it’s anarchy. I’ve got my personal
favourites but in the end it doesn’t matter who or where it comes from... so long as it’s good and it's real.
- Paul Morris, music director at 97.7 HTZ-FM
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DaveMoral
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
| Quote: | Originally posted by newbreedbrian
Disgusting. Yet another example of why the world would be better without religion. |
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I think that the situation has less to do with religion per se and more to do with the nature of the asshole interpretation of religion that Saudi
Arabia is dominated by. Wahhabism.
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newbreedbrian
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
| Quote: | Originally posted by newbreedbrian
Disgusting. Yet another example of why the world would be better without religion. |
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I think that the situation has less to do with religion per se and more to do with the nature of the asshole interpretation of religion that Saudi
Arabia is dominated by. Wahhabism. |
While I'm aware you are a religious person Dave, and that is your right of course, I have to disagree. This is just another example in a
lonnnnnnnnnnnnggggg list of evil predicated on religious convictions. Whether it's based on one persons interpretation or another's is really a moot
point, as it's still the basis for the reasoning behind it. And I'm not picking on any religion (or specific interpretation) in particular. Shit, more
evil has been committed in the name of Christianity than we could ever have time to discuss here. Nor am I saying that being religious automatically
makes someone more likely to commit atrocities in the name of their particular faith. That would be a gross overgeneralization and I'm not that dense.
That being said, I am in no way back pedaling when I say the world would be better off, currently as well as retroactively, without the influence of
religion. To illustrate my point, consider this. Throughout history, people's religious affiliations have almost always been based on their
ancestry/where they were born and live (and yes I'm aware of your conversion and that this is not true in your case). Now, knowing that this is the
only real reason for a person's religion historically (not taking into account conversions, whether personal or more likely due to imperialism, etc
which is a whole separate discussion in and of itself obviously) any rational person should be able to see how ridiculous most of the fighting over
the last couple thousand years has been. Let's be honest here, the majority of fighting in our history has been intrinsically tied in with religion
(once again heavily tied in with imperialism, though I'd make a point that throughout history a large consideration as well as financial support for
that particular evil has been from the church and their desire for conversion of "inferior" people). The mere fact that in 2010 (!) someone is going
to be executed for "sorcery" says about all it needs to about the damaging influence religion can have on otherwise rational people.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, ?You know, I want to set those people over there on
fire, but I?m just not close enough to get the job done.? George Carlin
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clevohardcore
* Kick\'n ass on the wild side *
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SOD.
Each aspect of the soul has it's own part to play, but the ideal is harmonious agreement with reason and control.
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DaveMoral
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| Quote: | Originally posted by newbreedbrian
| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
| Quote: | Originally posted by newbreedbrian
Disgusting. Yet another example of why the world would be better without religion. |
|
I think that the situation has less to do with religion per se and more to do with the nature of the asshole interpretation of religion that Saudi
Arabia is dominated by. Wahhabism. |
While I'm aware you are a religious person Dave, and that is your right of course, I have to disagree. This is just another example in a
lonnnnnnnnnnnnggggg list of evil predicated on religious convictions. Whether it's based on one persons interpretation or another's is really a moot
point, as it's still the basis for the reasoning behind it. And I'm not picking on any religion (or specific interpretation) in particular. Shit, more
evil has been committed in the name of Christianity than we could ever have time to discuss here. Nor am I saying that being religious automatically
makes someone more likely to commit atrocities in the name of their particular faith. That would be a gross overgeneralization and I'm not that dense.
That being said, I am in no way back pedaling when I say the world would be better off, currently as well as retroactively, without the influence of
religion. To illustrate my point, consider this. Throughout history, people's religious affiliations have almost always been based on their
ancestry/where they were born and live (and yes I'm aware of your conversion and that this is not true in your case). Now, knowing that this is the
only real reason for a person's religion historically (not taking into account conversions, whether personal or more likely due to imperialism, etc
which is a whole separate discussion in and of itself obviously) any rational person should be able to see how ridiculous most of the fighting over
the last couple thousand years has been. Let's be honest here, the majority of fighting in our history has been intrinsically tied in with religion
(once again heavily tied in with imperialism, though I'd make a point that throughout history a large consideration as well as financial support for
that particular evil has been from the church and their desire for conversion of "inferior" people). The mere fact that in 2010 (!) someone is going
to be executed for "sorcery" says about all it needs to about the damaging influence religion can have on otherwise rational people.
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Unfortunately your analysis is, in my opinion, very very far from the mark. Furthermore, as much as one might attempt to point the finger at religion
for the world's problems... religion has also been a great boon to the world. For instance, in Europe's Dark Ages it was monks and religious
institutions that actually preserved as much of the old knowledge as they could while the rest of society turned away from it.
Nevermind the ethical guidelines laid down by either "organized" religions or religious philosophers like Aristotle and Plato, Lao Tzu and Confucius,
etc. Warfare, more often than not, has been motivated by far more than mere religious conviction and difference. Primarily by the desire for wealth
and territory, which is why most wars that have been "justified" with religion as an excuse have mostly been perpetrated by non-religious ruling
authorities. Kings, sultans, emperors, etc. In fact, the only religious warfare that I can think of in history that has been initiated, consecrated
and led by any religious body was the Crusades, and even that had much more to do with possession of territory than it necessarily did religious
disagreement.
All but the earliest battles in the history of Islam, for instance, were initiated by the secular authorities for land and wealth, not by the clerical
establishment. It's of note that the clerical establishment devised very rigorous stipulations in Islamic law as to who, where, when and how "jihad"
could be declared. No governmental leader, or random shlub with a turban and a beard(Bin Laden, for example), could legally declare jihad in the name
of Islam. And thus most wars waged by the political powers in the Muslim world were in fact not jihad, and often did not have the backing of the
majority of the religious scholars. Christianity is much the same, as I understand it, even if in some situations the religious establishment has been
more free with their justifications for atrocity.
Nevertheless, I don't think one can make a sensible blanket statement(or even really a conclusive argument) that humanity would have been better off
without religion now or retroactively. It's nonsense, and it ignores some pretty important results in the spread of religion. For instance, the Arabia
Peninsula was an exceedingly violent place with constant tribal warfare before the tribes were united under the banner of Islam which dramatically
reduced the violence in their society enabling the Arabs to grow and ultimately to incorporate Greek and Persian and Chinese sciences and build upon
them, while Europe turned its back on its Greek and Roman heritage and constantly fought each other. Europe didn't begin to grow united until they
rallied to the call of the Church. Their purpose was, of course, quite horrific and the committed atrocities against their own Eastern Orthodox
coreligionists as well as Jews and Muslims... but one cannot argue that there was a force powerful enough to bring Europe together other than
religion.
Even the conquest of the Americas, not strictly speaking religiously motivated... though often justified by such as an afterthought. Ultimately about
greed rather than spirituality.
We can go on and on with that. Wars are rarely, if ever, purely about spirituality or ideology and almost always about wealth and land and resources
and later justified by said differences.
As to your supposition that one's religious affiliation is mostly dependent upon your ancestry and location, that's true to only a limited degree.
Christianity and Islam, for example, both grew out of tribal cultures as universal messages and invited people from diverse backgrounds into their
ranks from their earliest stages. Judaism was, without doubt, very much a tribal religion. As most religions of its time. Christianity and Islam both
share the same root as Judaism, but ultimately both have called to all of mankind and in fact spread to all corners of the civilized world very very
swiftly. Europe, Eurasia, India, China, Africa etc have all been home to Islam and Christianity for nigh 2,000 years. It took hundreds of years before
either of those religions could take hold enough in those lands to have become the traditions of fathers and forefathers.
Furthermore, many of the basic laws that human beings agree upon for civil society have kept their power explicitly because they came to be assumed
due to the means by which they were propagated. Religion. The Code of Ur-Nammu, Hammurabi, Mosaic law, Islamic Law, The law of Manu, traditional
Chinese law was heavily influenced by traditional Chinese cosmology and spirituality.
There's alot about civil society that atheists take for granted that probably would not have taken root without the power of religion spearheading the
movement for their implementation and justification. That's probably because there's increasing biological evidence that the tendency for religious
conviction is hard-wired into the human brain. I'd argue that religion has brought a great deal more good with it than bad, even if it's good is
uniting one society against another. With or without religion there would be a great deal of bloodshed now and throughout human history, that is an
inevitable side effect of human frailty and fallibility.
It's also worth pointing out that the greatest killers of human beings over the course of the last century are arguably the Soviet Union and Communist
China... both of which are/were officially atheist and anti-religion. There's also no anthropological evidence to suggest that non-religious
societies(if any truly existed) were any more or less violent than their religious peers.
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newbreedbrian
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No disrespect to you Dave, but you continually fail to see the big picture. Ethical guidelines are not and have never been inherently religious. That
argument is flatly ridiculous, and one trotted out time and time again by religious apologists. From an evolutionary perspective kinship,
reciprocation, reputation and a host of other reasons easily explain why we (sometimes) act like decent people. My personal set of "ethics", or
whatever term you favor, has nothing to do with an invisible man in the sky.
As to the notion of religion having little to nothing to do with wars, come on that doesn't help much with your credibility my friend. World War II
anyone? How many Jews were slaughtered? Yes, a lot of Hitler's philosophy had to do with Jew's financial control in Europe in the preceding years. So
why not go after the bankers? Why kill peasants, and others who obviously could have/would have no influence in financial matters? He spent an awful
lot of time convincing people that Christians were superior and Jews were no better than rats. Was annexing territories something he was interested
in? Of course, but hardly his only concern. And your notion that the prime motivation for the Crusades was not religion is just not true and I won't
even touch that one.
As to whether jihad is "official" or not is once again a moot point. A war waged on religious principles is still a war. People still die, families
still suffer, cities and towns are still destroyed. I doubt they care about the difference. Religious scholars are people much like everyone else.
Some of them are intelligent enough to see through bullshit (well most of it) and some are not.
Religions spreading to different land might sound altruistic and innocent but the truth reveals something much more evil. During the famine in Ireland
(a time when the country was producing enough food for itself sadly, but being exported to England) people were literally dying in the streets. In
come the English protestants with soup, but only if Irish Catholics would convert. Otherwise too fucking bad, die in the street you Catholic heathen.
So much for values.
As for Communism being anti religion, that's grasping at straws. That particular ideology has it own set of (massive) logistical problems, and is a
whole different discussion.
Listen Dave, I'm not stupid. I realize there would have been evil in our history without religion. As to what degree, we'll never know. What I'm
saying is that it's been a major deciding factor in a lot of it. The sheer arrogance of believing that one persons religious affiliation makes them
better or more "right" is laughable. Using that a reason for genocide isn't so funny. I'm aware that for you, it's more a matter of personal faith but
that doesn't change history no matter how much someone wants it to. People have been fighting each other for thousands of years over which god they
pray to. In the end it's about control, believing you can tell someone else how to live. Whether that's a homosexual, someone drawing a picture of
Mohammed, someone eating a certain dinner on a Friday, or someone predicting the future, they do not deserve to be executed or otherwise punished for
that. We'll have to agree to disagree here my friend. I see this issue one way and you see it another. No biggie.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, ?You know, I want to set those people over there on
fire, but I?m just not close enough to get the job done.? George Carlin
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DaveMoral
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Dude, pointing to Communism as the largest participant in genocide in the last century, genocides of much greater scope than any that can be laid at
the feet of any religion, is not grasping at straws. It's pointing out, very clearly, how any ideology can and often does lead to great evil. That is
the flaw of humankind. Capitalism could, in theory, be singled out as an even greater killer of human beings and other species as a motivating force
for human behavior.
That's really what it comes down to. There's absolutely no reason to believe that human beings would have been better off without religion, why?
Because as the two above cases illustrate, mankind will find any justification to kill other human beings. That's our corrupt nature.
Your argument falls flat on it's face simply because you fail to take into account that aspect of human nature. It's a sad one, but quite frankly...
throughout human history our ethical guidelines have been codified and primarily promoted by religion. It doesn't matter what religion, but it's been
primarily via religion. In fact, it hasn't been until very recently in human history that ethical codes have been advocated absent religious or
spiritual/metaphysical philosophies.
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newbreedbrian
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Get over the communism thing man. I've already conceded the flaws inherent in that. Nowhere have I defended it, and frankly it may be a great idea in
theory, but it no way at all does it work in practice. We've seen that time and time again. The two are mutually exclusive Dave. Whether a punch in
the face or a kick in the ass is worse makes no difference. Neither is good. Yes, the world would be better without Communism as well, get over it.
That's diversionary nonsense, i.e grasping at straws. Comparing body counts is ridiculous. And quite frankly if you want to go there, how many people
died in the World Wars. WWII was directly started by a "christian nation", and when you study the history of WWI so was that war (Germany pushed
Austria-Hungary into that war). If you look at the history of France's involvement in Vietnam, which directly influences that disaster of a war, it
started with missionaries wanting to spread Christianity. At that time, France wanted very little, if anything, to do with that country. Ever read the
Old Testament? I have, and if that's where our ethics come from "God" has some explaining to do. Based on that text, he was a petty, vengeful dirtbag
and I'll do fine with my own ethics thank you very much. If we treated women the way we should based solely on that book, things would be very
different. Ethics change and evolve, much as we ourselves do.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, ?You know, I want to set those people over there on
fire, but I?m just not close enough to get the job done.? George Carlin
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wez138
Senior Member
Posts: 651
Registered: 12-1-2009
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Mood: TMMB's.
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I agree with Brian, Movements are systems and systems kill,movements suppress a person's will,religions became or become systems because they feel
lost. It's blind faith and it show's the sheer arrogance of man.
To say most war's are not fought because of a religious ideal or view point is a ridiculous statement. Yes it might seem that way or told that way but
as everything in life to do with systems a reason is given back as religious which in-turn makes it hypocrisy due to the fact that men and women are
imprisoned year in year out through out this earth or sentenced to death due to there beliefs, from shop lifters to serial killers who stole or
murdered because of there BELIEFS. But when a religion has a war because of THERE BELIEFS it's deemed fine within the eye's of the law because lets
face it...Why rock the boat when a lot of money can be made and also who has the most of the wealth and power within that country fighting the "war"?
I guess that would be the religion fighting the war. Hence why so many laws are made to reflect whatever religion the ruling is set to protect!! Hence
why if the term religious war is used for a reason for war no-one is imprisoned because how do you argue against it when it has far to much sway on
the law that is supposed to protect against wrong doing and abuse of power? It never happens because 1) The law can protect them 2) The war mongers
are in most case's very powerful people with the backing of other powerful people 3) A lot of religions fund the wars. But if a person is imprisoned
the reason being is 1) Another religion has occupied the country 2) The leader of the war has lost interest from another involved power 3) They was
deemed as a threat to another religions power 4) They have something to gain from the other religion they are calling war on and fight to gain it at
whatever cost. That's why Jew's don't fight Jew's,Muslims don't fight Muslims,Catholics don't fight Catholics and when and if they do it's only when
there is something to gain from it hence why it doesn't happen because the fact is they all share the takings.
A belief in something is an opinion and sometimes opinions are wrong and if that's not the case then why choose to believe in a religion that is based
on a belief because you believe in what you have been told which boils down to someone else's opinion of what the organised religion should believe
in. Surly you cannot practise a religion and agree with every single rule or view point it holds but people fear speaking out against what they feel
is wrong with the religion they practise because they will be going against what they have been taught/lead to believe. It's the best game they play
and if they have enough players the game gets even bigger and better because more players more wealth and more importantly more power. And even if
someone of the same religion does not agree to the war being waged there's no point because there still religious and the war starters are still
religious too, which in turn keeps the vicious cycle repeating itself because someone comes along believing in it and starts a war in its name too.
Living a life kept shut by a dream,
I'm reaching out to grasp my reality.
Hands of time wrap tight around my neck, and hit me so hard,
leaving me eyes black.
staring at a ceiling,
wondering why i never left,
penning words in a notebook,
wondering why haven't slept.
sanity is tapping in a cell
inside my fucking head.
begging for redemption
after hearing what was said.
the nights, they will not sleep
cause the days, have played for keeps.
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JawnDiablo
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all religions make me wanna throw up
all religions make me sick
all religions suck.
happy easter
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DaveMoral
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Boiling all of mankind's problems down to "it's religion's fault" is simplistic at best, dishonest at worst.
I'm not an apologist here, I'm pointing out the inherent flaw in the argument that it's "all religion's fault." It's a blanket statement that is
asinine, and ignorant.
Furthermore, it's not about comparing body counts, it's about pointing out the inherent flaw of the statement "the world would be better of without
religion" as if religion is the sole force behind human on human violence. It's not, and in fact, is probably more of a backhanded excuse than
anything else. Rarely is religion the prime motivator at the outset. It may be given the prime motivation for calling peasants to the field, but it's
the greed of one or a few men at the top that kicks it off. I think the lie is put to your statement when you actually analyze how the Crusades kicked
off. The Byzantines called upon Rome to pull their asses out of the fire when they were crumbing before the Arab/Turk imperial march. Rome said "hmm,
this could be a chance to gobble up so territory for our control and benefit" called on Northern and Western European kings gave the excuse that it
was a religious war... then they proceeded to capture all the lands of the Byzantines they were "saving" from the "heathen Saracens." Sure, religion
was abused as a uniting force... but ultimately the greed of man was the prime mover.
And wez, your notion that "Jews don't fight Jews, Muslims don't fight Muslims, Catholics don't fight Catholics" is out and out bullshit and always has
been. Hell, Muslims are killing Muslims every day right now. Some supposedly because of different interpretations, others just because they disagree
on politics more than anything. And that's just taking into account the actions of al-Qa'ida, the majority of whose victims have been Muslims. That
doesn't count the conflicts between Sunni countries and other Sunni countries. Or Shi'a groups versus Shia groups. Let alone countries that waged wars
on each other in Europe. How many German soldiers in WWII were Catholic fighting American, Irish, British, Spanish etc Catholics? Protestants fight
Protestants all the time. Wars are primarily politics and greed. Religion has been, more often than not, simply the excuse given. Suitable for
suckering the masses into being the fodder for a king's greedy aspirations and little else when it comes to warfare. Patriotism is just as strong a
motivator nowadays, and just as blatantly abused.
Religion is easy to scapegoat when you are, essentially, attempting to take a positive view of mankind in itself that just doesn't bear out when put
to closer examination. Religion is simply one of a number of sentiments that are taken advantage of by people who wish to wield power and attain great
wealth. The notion that religion hasn't led to a great deal of good in human civilization is just as patently false as the idea that it has never led
to a great deal of evil done in religion's name. All that says is that religion is a tool that can be used to benefit or to ill, and I do not think
it's ill has been greater than its good. If that were the case, then essentially all systems of belief or political ideology are in the same boat and
often worse boat than religion.
And yes, most ethical codes have their roots in religious systems. Even those you may now consider barbaric or outmoded. Oddly, it has been the case
that more often than not the evolution of ethics has begun via internal critique by religious people. I'll also go out on a limb here and say that not
all religiously motivated warfare has been bad. In fact, I'll categorically declare that John Brown's guerrilla war on slavery was indeed one of the
more righteous wars in human history and without doubt good for all humankind. Religion has been used as a rallying cry against tyranny and oppression
at least as much as it has been used to oppress people. It's been used to unite people as much as it has been to divide. That's the kicker, religion
is a double-edge sword and depending upon the wielder can be a powerful force for good or a powerful force for ill. Why is that? Because religion, as
a codification of deep spiritual experience, is a man-made institution. It's a tool for accomplishing a goal, and like all tools can and has been
misused.
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Jason the Magnificent
Posting Freak
Posts: 3880
Registered: 8-2-2003
Member Is Offline
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I do know it's misused a whole hell of a lot more than a lot of other tools.
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newbreedbrian
Posting Freak
Posts: 2616
Registered: 9-2-2004
Location: Hell
Member Is Offline
Mood: doc watson
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
Boiling all of mankind's problems down to "it's religion's fault" is simplistic at best, dishonest at worst.
I'm not an apologist here, I'm pointing out the inherent flaw in the argument that it's "all religion's fault." It's a blanket statement that is
asinine, and ignorant.
Furthermore, it's not about comparing body counts, it's about pointing out the inherent flaw of the statement "the world would be better of without
religion" as if religion is the sole force behind human on human violence. It's not, and in fact, is probably more of a backhanded excuse than
anything else. Rarely is religion the prime motivator at the outset. It may be given the prime motivation for calling peasants to the field, but it's
the greed of one or a few men at the top that kicks it off. I think the lie is put to your statement when you actually analyze how the Crusades kicked
off. The Byzantines called upon Rome to pull their asses out of the fire when they were crumbing before the Arab/Turk imperial march. Rome said "hmm,
this could be a chance to gobble up so territory for our control and benefit" called on Northern and Western European kings gave the excuse that it
was a religious war... then they proceeded to capture all the lands of the Byzantines they were "saving" from the "heathen Saracens." Sure, religion
was abused as a uniting force... but ultimately the greed of man was the prime mover.
And wez, your notion that "Jews don't fight Jews, Muslims don't fight Muslims, Catholics don't fight Catholics" is out and out bullshit and always has
been. Hell, Muslims are killing Muslims every day right now. Some supposedly because of different interpretations, others just because they disagree
on politics more than anything. And that's just taking into account the actions of al-Qa'ida, the majority of whose victims have been Muslims. That
doesn't count the conflicts between Sunni countries and other Sunni countries. Or Shi'a groups versus Shia groups. Let alone countries that waged wars
on each other in Europe. How many German soldiers in WWII were Catholic fighting American, Irish, British, Spanish etc Catholics? Protestants fight
Protestants all the time. Wars are primarily politics and greed. Religion has been, more often than not, simply the excuse given. Suitable for
suckering the masses into being the fodder for a king's greedy aspirations and little else when it comes to warfare. Patriotism is just as strong a
motivator nowadays, and just as blatantly abused.
Religion is easy to scapegoat when you are, essentially, attempting to take a positive view of mankind in itself that just doesn't bear out when put
to closer examination. Religion is simply one of a number of sentiments that are taken advantage of by people who wish to wield power and attain great
wealth. The notion that religion hasn't led to a great deal of good in human civilization is just as patently false as the idea that it has never led
to a great deal of evil done in religion's name. All that says is that religion is a tool that can be used to benefit or to ill, and I do not think
it's ill has been greater than its good. If that were the case, then essentially all systems of belief or political ideology are in the same boat and
often worse boat than religion.
And yes, most ethical codes have their roots in religious systems. Even those you may now consider barbaric or outmoded. Oddly, it has been the case
that more often than not the evolution of ethics has begun via internal critique by religious people. I'll also go out on a limb here and say that not
all religiously motivated warfare has been bad. In fact, I'll categorically declare that John Brown's guerrilla war on slavery was indeed one of the
more righteous wars in human history and without doubt good for all humankind. Religion has been used as a rallying cry against tyranny and oppression
at least as much as it has been used to oppress people. It's been used to unite people as much as it has been to divide. That's the kicker, religion
is a double-edge sword and depending upon the wielder can be a powerful force for good or a powerful force for ill. Why is that? Because religion, as
a codification of deep spiritual experience, is a man-made institution. It's a tool for accomplishing a goal, and like all tools can and has been
misused. |
Point me again to where I've said all mankind's problems are religions fault again? Jesus Dave, you're smarter than pulling that kind of nonsense to
try to make a point. There are many problems in the world my friend, religion just happens to be one of the major ones. You're way too caught up in
an all or nothing scenario, the world is not that black and white. Have some people done good things in the name of their "god"? Yes, of course they
have. Your statement that religion is rarely the prime motivator for violence is outright bullshit. You can not be that blind.
As far as your sad summation of the Crusades, once again give me a break. It's nothing even worth my time to have a discussion on the Crusades if you
think religious beliefs account for nothing more than an afterthought there. Once again, I've already conceded that Imperialism and Religion often go
hand in hand. And again, the world is not black and white and problems are usually complex.
If we get our ethics from the bible, we either do or we don't. This whole thing where people pick and choose which ones are for them makes no sense.
If there really is a higher power, I would think that would be awfully insulting to do that. According to the text a lot of what we do and think today
would be viciously punishable.
Yes, religion is a man made tool, one for control. It's easy to prey on peoples superstitions and fears for your benefit. Jesus, look at the history
of the Catholic church in Rome. Where do you think the sheer opulence of that place comes from? You know what Dave, this is getting really boring. I
do think you're taking this way too personally and it's making it difficult for you to look at the whole thing objectively.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, ?You know, I want to set those people over there on
fire, but I?m just not close enough to get the job done.? George Carlin
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DaveMoral
Posting Freak
Posts: 4334
Registered: 1-24-2006
Location: Ardmore PA
Member Is Offline
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^That's the crux of the problem. A number of folks on here make blatantly ignorant and sweeping statements about religion and religious people that
are indeed insulting. And, yes, it is very personal for me and anyone else that believes. Why do you think it's such a hot button issue? Let's face
it, if I started posting on here about how you guys are all fucked because you don't believe like me I'd get an ear full... but I'm expected to sit by
quietly as you mock faith in general and me specifically when you make comments like "the world would be better off without religion" or talk about
"imaginary friends." Fuck you for that double standard.
The fact is, religion has not been as bad for humanity as atheists attempt to depict it. If it were, it wouldn't exist anymore. Simple as that, which
is why so many ancient religions have disappeared. People tend to abandon the concepts that no longer work for them. If religion doesn't work for you,
fine abandon it. But it works for far more people and shows no signs of not working for them. There has been no greater force for the promotion of
altruism in human history than religion.
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