tireironsaint
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Sorry....
I know this is gonna be a rather unpopular opinion around here, but I enjoy spewing my honest opinions all over alla youse, so here it is.....I don't
like Ramallah.
I'm a fan of Rob's writing, I like the lyrics and the ideas, but the sound of this band is very displeasing to my refined ear. This is probably no
real surprise to any of you who've read my rants about music before, but I'm gonna break it down anyway. First of all, it's way, and I mean
waaaaaaaaay too metal. I realize it's supposed to have a big metal thing goin' on and that it's being marketed as appealing to metal fans and all, but
in my book, metal = bad music and that drags this down about ten points out of fifty total. Again, I fully respect Rob's writing abilities and there's
no doubt he's very talented and knows exactly what he's doing when it comes to putting songs together, this is all just my personal opinion here and
I'll be more than surprised if anybody steps up and agrees with me here.
Second, the production strikes me as overblown. All the effects in there and the slick sound just make me immediately want to turn it off. I know that
all the technical fiends and musician-types enjoy hearing every nuance of every note and all that, but slick production sounds to me like a million
redone takes of the same part of the song laboriously spliced together and it takes the spontaneity and passion out of the music (for me).
Like I said earlier, I think the ideas behind this band are great and the world needs to have these sorts of themes crammed down their throats, as Rob
says, but that's what the idea behind the best underground bands in the world has always been about to me: making music that expresses thoughts the
world wants to ignore and has music to match. I don't really think the music matches the ideas here. It seems geared toward a wider, more
mainstream audience and designed to make the ideas slip past the gates, if that makes sense. I understand the whole argument about reaching wider
audiences to get the message out, but I guess I just look at that sort of thing as "dumbing down" the music to appeal to that lowest common
denominator. Don't get me wrong, I wish Rob and company nothing but success in whatever they choose to do, but this project just doesn't cut it for
me. I was very excited when I first heard Rob had a new project (after I made sure that didn't mean Blood For Blood was over and done with, of course)
and I ran down to record store and listened to the first CD all the way through and went back and replayed a couple of songs again before I left the
listening booth, but I was disappointed and just couldn't force myself into liking it, eve though I definitely tried. The sound of it was all wrong
for me (especially the second vocals, when I heard those it was all I could do to keep listening). I went back several times and almost bought it a
couple of times, just because I respect the ideas behind the songs and I like everything else I've heard from Rob, but I never could do it. I thought
that maybe Ramalah would grow into something I could get into after they continued writing and releasing records, but this new record (well, the songs
I've heard from it) goes even further away from any sound I can embrace and I seriously doubt that anything they do in the future will veer back into
a direction I can appreciate.
I'm sure some of you are wondering why I spent so much time talking about a band I really don't like, especially since this is a band most, if not all
of you, already love. The main reason is that I feel comfortable enough around here that I can be totally honest. I am certainly NOT trying to
convince anybody to dislike Ramallah or to not buy their CD or support them. Hell, if they were to play here I'd go see 'em. I'd probably enjoy them
much better live, even if I still wouldn't really like the music too much. Another reason I bothered to write this is that I can't stand to be in an
environment (even a web enviroment) where there is no dispute, where everybody has the same opinion or no more than slight variations on the same
opinion. I don't doubt that there will be a lot of controversy over the topics addressed by Ramallah, amongst the press if not the HC and Punk
community, so maybe my throwing in a dissenting opinion at this point in the game is uncalled for, but I feel like calling it as I see it, so I am.
Feel free to call me names or tell me how I'm wrong, it makes no difference to me and sure as hell won't change my mind, but if it makes anyone feel
like they're doing their part, go ahead. I'm not trying to step on any toes here, I think Rob and the rest of Ramallah are smart enough to realize
this not any kind of personal attack. Fuck, if I didn't throw in enough compliments toward Rob already, let me just reiterate one thing I say
everytime the topic of modern HC comes up: I think Blood For Blood is one of a very small handfull of bands who embody what HC is all about in this
day and age. I had given up on HC as a genre before BFB came about. I assumed it was dead and wasn't coming back. I still think it's a sad shadow of
what it was and what it should be, but Blood For Blood and a very few others show me that it still lives in some hearts.
And no, I don't think that all music, or even all music related to HC and/or Punk needs to make sure it meets my requirements to justify it's
existence, but I do feel like I have every right to voice my opinion.
Veritas odium parit
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thedog
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i think most of the folks around here are cool enough to respect your opinion.
its your opinion, and if you dont dig it - then you dont dig it.... no one can blame you for that.
if you are not into metal type stuff i can see why this might not be for you, personally i like some metal so ramallah's music is fine with me.
i think rob is just an incredible artist who knows how the cover all his bases....
blood for blood, ramallah, & sinners and saints all at the top of their game.
\"thank you very little\"
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GabeTexasGAMC
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I liked But a whimper soooo much more than this new one.
It's some good stuff though. But not as good as the first burst of raw power that came out of But a Whimper.
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XHonusWagnerX
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I havent even heard 1 song off the new record, but I loved the first cd. I think that everything Rob touches is gold, I just hope that it works out
for him and he stays on track!
Ill be getting the CD soon and Im sure Ill love it as much as the first one, the Sinners & Saints cd and most of the BFB stuff.
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XnMeX
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See, now that first post is a respectable opinion.
now, if you came in like some people do on other boards and said
"What the fuck happened to Rob? Metal?!?!? Yeah, fucking cool! How can people listen to this shit?" then it would be a WHOLE different story.
I TOTALLY respect your opinion, expecially how well your points were explained. I'll go on with my opinion as a counter to yours.
I could never get into the RAW sound of most hardcore. I picked up an old NSK record and the recording sounded shitty to me which made it so I
couldn't listen to the songs (same with Hatebreed "Under the knife" great songs, but that recording KILLS it for me). I realise some people like
that raw sound, but I deffinetly don't. Picked up the newest NSK album after and enjoy it very much. As goes with Rob's stuff and the new Ramallah.
The EP was great, quality was great, energy was great. All in all it was a little rough but just enough to give it a kind of edge and not take away
from it (like the above listed examples). Now, the new Ramallah seems like a finely polished gem. Everything as crisp as can be and I am diggin
that. I like to be able to hear the music the best way that artist can put it forward. Just my opinion on sound quality / production values.
As for the "metal" sound.... I don't really hear it as much as people say. It's not exactly hardcore, but it's not straight up metal. It seems like
it is in the middle somewhere which might make it a bit hard to push to either crowd.
About them "dumbing down" to expand into the mainstream. I can obviously see that they are trying to get a wider appeal (which I am fine with, he
deserves all the fans he can get) but I wouldn't say the music is being dumbed down to do so. I don't see how people think there is this HUGE
difference between the EP and the new album (I know you don't tireironsaint, but many have said it). I see the new album and the ep as one in the
same. One is a bit more refined, but the music as a whole is similar which brings me to the "dumbing down". I don't think Rob had the idea of a
wider audience when making the EP and to me the new album sounds right in the same vein as the EP. I don't know, i'm having a hard time putting my
thought on it into words but I think you get what i'm getting at (I hope). I need more sleep. 
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hollymaconmovies
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| Quote: | Originally posted by XnMeX
See, now that first post is a respectable opinion.
now, if you came in like some people do on other boards and said
"What the fuck happened to Rob? Metal?!?!? Yeah, fucking cool! How can people listen to this shit?" then it would be a WHOLE different story.
I TOTALLY respect your opinion, expecially how well your points were explained. I'll go on with my opinion as a counter to yours.
I could never get into the RAW sound of most hardcore...I realise some people like that raw sound, but I deffinetly don't...the new Ramallah seems
like a finely polished gem. Everything as crisp as can be and I am diggin that. I like to be able to hear the music the best way that artist can put
it forward. Just my opinion on sound quality / production values.
As for the "metal" sound.... I don't really hear it as much as people say. It's not exactly hardcore, but it's not straight up metal. It seems like
it is in the middle somewhere which might make it a bit hard to push to either crowd.
I need more sleep. |
You saved me a lot of typing. 
I would just add this:
Polished on an album is a good thing in my opinion (doesn't HAVE to be for me to like it, but I don't think it's a bad thing). Live, tight is great
(and again, not ENTIRELY necessary), but live is where I expect to hear the spontaneity, and in either case there should and can be passion if it's
produced/performed by talented people.
As far as 'dumbing down' goes, I'd be curious to know if it was Ramallah's intention to cast a wider net, if this is just a showcase of Rob's musical
diversity, or a bit of both. Or perhaps neither, and he's just doing what he wants to do whereever it falls, and regardless of who buys it/buys into
it/supports it etc.
In either case, I think it need be pointed out that this music is still a far cry from what is considered to be mainstream. If you want to hear dumbed
down, lowest common denominator music, throw on your radio and tune into your garden variety 'hits' station. 99% of what you'll hear there falls into
that category. Ramallah is not that. If K104 starts playing Ramallah, I'll eat my words. That said, if they did get some radio play, a la System of a
Down, I don't think there's a thing wrong with that.
But I wouldn't expect your typical lowest common denomoninator listener to have a damn bit of interest in Ramallah. Again, if they break that mold,
than they deserve it...which bring us full circle to the whole selling out debate, and success <> selling out. As long as you're turning out work
you're proud of and represents your ideals. If the masses happen to catch on, so be it.
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XHonusWagnerX
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I think Ramallah is pretty metal & I think that Rob does to. My opinion on that is who cares what genere any one wants to call it. All that really
matters is that you either think its GOOD or its NOT GOOD.
As far as it being dumbed down... I havent heard the new record yet, but Ive listened to the EP hundreds of times. All I really have to say here is
that dispite all his flaws, Rob is one of the smartest and intelectual people that Ive ever met. Its almost like hes to smart for his own good. I
spent 3 weeks with him on tour a few years ago and had a bunch of great conversations about a ton of differant subjects.
Mainstream? Fuck it, why not? Hatebreed is mainstream at this point! Let Rob cash in if he can. I dont think he purposly wrote a record to get
mainstream attention but with the music that is selling and the way Ramallah sounds its almost inevitable. My opinion on Rob and mainstream music is
all about Sinners & Saints. I think that if a major lable got ahold of S&S and put some money behind the band they could be the band that replaces
Guns and Roses as 'modern day rock heroes'. I can honestly hear most of those songs being played to an arena sized crowd.
I just hope that no matter what happens with Ramallah, that Rob and Buddha can eventually get back together and at least play a few BFB shows!
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Discipline
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I can understand not like Ramallah if you don't like the huge metal influence. I bought the first cd because it was Rob doing it. On the first
listen I was kind of on the fence. After a few more listens really got into it and have loved it ever since.
I have to say that I love the clear production sounds. I don't mind listening to old hardcore that has lousy production because that's all they could
afford. But these days it's a lot easier and affordable to get into a half decent studio and get a good sound on your record it's kind of foolish not
to.
I think the thing I like most is Ramallah shows the range of Rob's talent. Between is three bands (although I know Mark is an equal in S&S) none
sound even remotely alike. I hate when people start side bands that sound exactly like their main band. I dunno, I dig Ramallah, but somehow I'm not
surprised to hear the Saint say he doesn't like it.
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
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XnMeX
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
I think the thing I like most is Ramallah shows the range of Rob's talent. Between is three bands (although I know Mark is an equal in S&S) none
sound even remotely alike. I hate when people start side bands that sound exactly like their main band. |
Indeed. 3 excelent bands, and it's one hell of a range from hardcore, rock, to metal type music.
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soulless
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i never notice production on albums, or i never think about it, but i read through this thread while i was waiting for the cd to rip, so i tried to
pay attention to it when i listened to it. only gone through the cd twice, but i like the fact that it sounds more polished. it reveals that there
are musical nuances hiding in there. i don't think i fall into that technical fiend category because i flat out know nothing about that stuff. i'm
talking about the kind of thing where you hear the album a dozen times, and all of a sudden months later you're listening late at night with
headphones on and you pick up on a subtlety in the harmonies or the guitar line. if i thought about it, i'd say that i generally do prefer a rawer
sound and less slick production because with a lot of stuff i like, those subtlties aren't there at all, and the songs come off as over-produced for
no reason. they aren't as interesting and worthy of the production. the best example i can think of, not to purposely pick another rob lind-related
band, is the sinners & saints album. i've probably listened to that thing a couple hundred times, but i'm still noticing different parts of the music
that i didn't pay attention to before. maybe i'm just not really observant and the majority of people who listen to these albums pick up on those
things with the first listen. and maybe that's a bad example because i'm wrong about the production on the sinners & saints album - i don't know
enough about production to know if that's actually what i'm getting at here, but it's the reason i like a clearer, crisper sound on certain albums,
and why i like this one the way it is.
i think i agree somewhat on the metal thing. i don't in the respect that i like the metal influence, but i'm noticing that my favorite tracks are the
ones with less of that influence. "bye-bye" reminds me of to s+s "never too young to die" (especially the thing in the intro), and right now that's
one of my favorite songs on the cd.
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tireironsaint
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Very nice to see that people came in and were able to comfortably debate this instead of starting one of those brilliant internet brawls. Not that
it's really all that surprising since we are on the Thorp boards and not B9 or some shit like that, it's just another example of how great this board
is.
To address a couple of points, lemme just say that I was not accusing Ramallah of dumbing down anything. I knew I would regret putting that phrase in
there, but it was the closest I could come up with at the time to what I really meant. If you read that paragraph again, as I just did, you'll notice
I didn't say Ramallah dumbed down their music, I said that I disagree with the theory of reaching wider audiences by making the music more mainstream
is dumbing it down. Maybe that's not really clear, but I was just thinking of the whole debate about Rage Against The Machine and/or Chumbawamba when
I wrote that. Both of those bands took the stance that they were making much different music than they had in their respective scenes and bands
previously basically in order to spread their message to as many people as possible. In the end I think that plan backfired and nobody took them
really seriously for two reasons. One, the mainstream audience doesn't give a fuck about the message and two, the people who do care about the message
see those bands as turning their backs on them. I don't really see Ramallah in that same light because I don't think they are THAT far removed from
the scene they grew up in. While I would certainly agree that Blood For Blood, Sinners & Saints, and Ramallah are three bands with three separate and
well-developed identities, I really don't think it's difficult to see a common thread running between them either. I do however, think it's fair to
say that of the three bands, Ramallah is going to get and is already getting a LOT of "buzz", if you will. It seemed to be a foregone conclusion to me
that Ramallah were pushing for a bigger and more diverse audience than either Blood For Blood or Sinners & Saints, but I guess from some people's
responses that I may have been incorrect in my assumption that everyone saw it that way. Anyway, I'm certainly not crying sellout or accusing Rob of
having ulterior motives, I'm just explaining the way I hear them.
As for the production, I just wanted to say something, especially in light of Discipline's comment about it being foolish not to make use of what's
available now. I'm not really talking about the difference between good and bad production so much as the STYLE of the production. I like to be able
to hear what's going on and not listen to a muddy mess, but I don't wanna listen to something that sounds like it's got a layer of wax on it that's so
highly polished I could see my ugly-ass reflection in it either, if you catch my meaning. Over-polishing it takes out the human element and kills the
feel of the whole thing to me. I love Punk, Oi, Hard Core, and whatnot because of the passion and the feel of it, not because it's this artistic
creation above and beyond humanity or whatever.
Veritas odium parit
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Discipline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by tireironsaint
As for the production, I just wanted to say something, especially in light of Discipline's comment about it being foolish not to make use of what's
available now. I'm not really talking about the difference between good and bad production so much as the STYLE of the production. I like to be able
to hear what's going on and not listen to a muddy mess, but I don't wanna listen to something that sounds like it's got a layer of wax on it that's so
highly polished I could see my ugly-ass reflection in it either, if you catch my meaning. Over-polishing it takes out the human element and kills the
feel of the whole thing to me. I love Punk, Oi, Hard Core, and whatnot because of the passion and the feel of it, not because it's this artistic
creation above and beyond humanity or whatever. |
That's cool. I guess I misinterpreted what you meant by that comment. In that case, I would have to agree with you. Although I can't comment on the
new Ramallah cd yet as I haven't heard in yet. But in general I would have to agree. (one day I will come out on top in a debate with you )
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
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crazyfists28
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concerning the "metal" sound of ramallah, i truly appreciate the fact that rob has the sense to use his different "side projects" to pursue different
avenues when it comes to genre's of music. bfb: hardcore, sinners and saints:rocknroll ramallah: metalcore, whatever you wanna call it...i like that
he can be creative and use his options to create something new and fresh with each band he is in. nothing is lost in these so called side
projects...they are as if it is the main focus the sound of the album: i think its about time rob and the band in general get their chance to use
the studio to fully create the sound that is envisioned...the keyboards, the vocals..it all is enhanced with a quality album....everyone has an
opinion and this is mine
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