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Should that air marshal have killed that passenger?
Passengers: Alpizar Didn't Say 'Bomb'
By CURT ANDERSON, Associated Press Writer1 hour, 17 minutes ago
The airline passenger shot to death by federal marshals who said he made a bomb threat was agitated even before boarding and later appeared to be
desperate to get off the plane, some fellow travelers said.
One passenger said he "absolutely never heard the word 'bomb' at all" during the uproar as the Orlando-bound flight prepared to leave Miami on
Wednesday.
Federal officials say Rigoberto Alpizar made the threat in the jetway, after running up the plane's aisle from his seat at the back of the jetliner.
They opened fire because the 44-year-old Home Depot employee ignored their orders to stop, reached into his backpack and said he had a bomb, according
to authorities.
Alpizar's brother, speaking from Costa Rica, said he would never believe the shooting was necessary.
"I can't conceive that the marshals wouldn't be able to overpower an unarmed, single man, especially knowing he had already cleared every security
check," Carlos Alpizar told The Orlando Sentinel.
Some passengers said they noticed Alpizar while waiting to get on the plane. They said he was singing "Go Down Moses" as his wife tried to calm him.
Others said they saw him having lunch and described him as restless and anxious, but not dangerous.
"The wife was telling him, 'Calm down. Let other people get on the plane. It will be all right,'" said Alan Tirpak, a passenger.
Some passengers, including John McAlhany, said they believe Alpizar was no threat to anyone.
McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker who was returning home from a fishing trip in Key West, said he was sitting in Seat 21C when he noticed a
commotion a few rows back.
"I heard him saying to his wife, 'I've got to get off the plane,'" McAlhany said. "He bumped me, bumped a couple of stewardesses. He just wanted to
get off the plane."
Alpizar ran up the aisle into the first-class cabin, where marshals chased him onto the jetway, McAlhany said.
McAlhany said he "absolutely never heard the word 'bomb' at all."
"The first time I heard the word 'bomb' was when I was interviewed by the FBI," McAlhany said. "They kept asking if I heard him say the B-word. And I
said, 'What is the B-word?' And they were like, 'Bomb.' I said no. They said, 'Are you sure?' And I am."
Added another passenger, Mary Gardner: "I did not hear him say that he had a bomb."
Officials say there was no bomb and they found no connection to terrorism.
Witnesses said Alpizar's wife, Anne Buechner, had frantically tried to explain he was bipolar, a mental illness also known as manic-depression, and
was off his medication.
The National Alliance on Mental Illness called on the Air Marshal Service and other law enforcement agencies to train officers if they don't already
in responding to people with severe mental illness.
Others said Alpizar's mental health didn't matter while marshals were trying to talk to him and determine if the threat was real.
Shooting to maim or injure ? rather than kill ? is not an option for federal agents, said John Amat, national operations vice president of the Federal
Law Enforcement Officers Association, which includes air marshals in its membership.
"The person was screaming, saying he would blow up the plane, reaching into his bag ? they had to react," Amat said.
"The bottom line is, we're trained to shoot to stop the threat," said Amat, who is also a deputy with the U.S. Marshals Service in Miami. "Hollywood
has this perception that we are such marksmen we can shoot an arm or leg with accuracy. We can't. These guys were in a very tense situation. In their
minds they had to believe this person was an imminent threat to themselves or the people on the plane."
White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the two air marshals appeared to have acted properly when they shot to kill.
Both air marshals were hired in 2002 from other federal law enforcement agencies and were placed on administrative leave, said Brian Doyle, spokesman
for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.
Miami-Dade Police were investigating and the medical examiner's office was performing an autopsy on Alpizar, who was from Costa Rica but became a U.S.
citizen years ago. He lived in Maitland, an Orlando suburb.
Neighbors said the couple had been returning to their home from a missionary trip to Ecuador. Buechner works for the Council on Quality and Leadership
based in Towson, Md., a nonprofit organization focused on improving life for people with disabilities and mental illness, the organization said in a
statement.
David Stempler, president of the Air Travelers Association, said he thinks the shooting may prove more "reassuring than disturbing" to the traveling
public his organization represents. "This is a reminder they are there and are protecting the passengers and that it is a seriously deadly business,"
he said.
Armed police boarded the aircraft after the shooting, with some passengers in hysterics. McAlhany said he remembers having a shotgun pressed into his
head by one officer, and hearing cries and screams from many passengers aboard the aircraft after the shooting in the jetway.
"This was wrong," McAlhany said. "This man should be with his family for Christmas. Now he's dead."
If I fail math, there goes my chance at a good job and a happy life full of hard work.
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defstarsteve
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shoot him in the knee...but not to kill, or just tackle the guy
especailly if his wife is saying he's sick....
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gavin
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yes
you come at the king....you best not miss
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JawnDiablo
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i really do not like flying.....
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upyerbum
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| Quote: | Originally posted by defstarsteve
shoot him in the knee...but not to kill, or just tackle the guy
especailly if his wife is saying he's sick.... |
These guys train to shoot for the centre of mass, and to fire instinctively. It was a bad call but I wouldn't judge anyone in a situation like that
too quickly. Just a fucking horrible situation really, but this is the state of fear we're living in.
Well, its this place where nobody works, and the pigs don\'t give you any shit. Everyone smokes weed and gets drunk all day. Its a place where
cunts like me and you can truly take it easy and relax. Know what I mean?
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clevohardcore
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The idiot said he had a bomb. I am sick of hearing they acted unprofessionally. THAT IS THEIR JOB! They hear "bomb" they pull the trigger to save
everyones ass'.
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defstarsteve
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butt noone heard him say bomb...
take away the guns on planes and give them tazers or stun guns....
just as effective in a closed space, (it's a plane where the fuck are they gonna go?), you have less chance of hurting an innocent bystander, (planes
and guns don't mix well, all the dman pressure) and then you can interogate( torture) them to find out more info, dead men tell no tales...
the war on terror is exactly the same as the war on drugs....
we'll take out all the low level thugs, but the big money mother fuckers we put in place we'll never touch....
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MyOwnWay
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by defstarstevethe war on terror is exactly the same as the war on drugs.... |
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clevohardcore
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I guess. Tazers are effective ONLY IF you have only 1 guy being crazy. How is 1 or 2 marshalls goingt o take out 5 or 6 hijackers with only a couple
tazer guns. That won't work?
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defstarsteve
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bro neither will a gun in that case....
but if 6 mofo's stand up and there is only 1 sky marshall,
I can promise you that everyone else on that plane will step up and kick their asses...
shit wont go down like it did before...
the regular everyday people know too much about it now to let it happen again.
if the dude did say he had a bomb and noone around him heard him say it, what grounds are there to kill him, take him down but don't kill him if you
have a reason to suspect him of shit
and if he did say it and the people around him did hear him, they would have shut his ass down quick... just beat the shit out of him probably
I really don't think people are that scared anymore
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clevohardcore
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What I saw on tv with some leader of the airmarshall division said he did in fact say he had a bomb and walked briskly twards the cockpit. Not sure
about you but me in that situation I am shooting the son of a bitch. But the dude made a left and tried to run out of the plane. they shot him in the
tunnel.
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Discipline
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Fuck 'em. Shouldn't have opened his mouth.
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
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upyerbum
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I also thought it was odd they still employ guns on aircraft. Probably not the best choice in an enclosed pressurized rocket hurtling through the sky.
As Steve pointed out there are lots of other options. I don't know why they just don't equip the planes with Halon systems or something to suck the
oxygen out of the air and knock everybody the fuck out except the cockpit.
Well, its this place where nobody works, and the pigs don\'t give you any shit. Everyone smokes weed and gets drunk all day. Its a place where
cunts like me and you can truly take it easy and relax. Know what I mean?
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XnMeX
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If they didn't shoot to kil, it would still give the person a chance to set off the bomb they have. You shoot a knee, he reaches in his bad and sets
the bomb off, then what? If the security tells a suspicious person "STOP!" and they keep going and hear him say he's gonna blow up the plane, take em
out.
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defstarsteve
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since 911 how many boms on plane have thier been.
has anyone flownon here at all,
it's a fucking hassle to get on the plane, with a tooth brush let alone a bomb...
yes the plane was coming from south america where we may not be in control of the saftey regulations, but step back and look at the facts...
the plane was on the ground... after being flown here, plenty of chances to blow it
if you are going to blow up a plane, you don't do it after you arrive and run off of it... that wont get you your 70 virigns in heave or whatever...
the facts behind this case are sketchy as fuck....
if the dud had a bomb all the way for south america and he didn't blow it up, why the fuck do it at the terminal after it lands...
it achieves nothing, and all terrorists believie it or not have a goal... besides being a martyr
I'm not saying that the air marshall should have just let the guy go, but the dude is dead... for no good reason. the air marshall over reacted, and
used excessive force...
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SHAKO KEN
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| Quote: | Originally posted by defstarsteve
the plane was on the ground... after being flown here, plenty of chances to blow it |
it was a flight from miami to orlando that hadn't taken off yet.
anyhow, those marshalls have to be on guard during the entire flight, just in case there's some nut who doesn't follow the rules of logic.
guns are more effective than tasers at a long range and with multiple attackers. i don't know about the safety of it, i would hope they've chosen the
caliber etc. so that there's minimal damage if the plane gets hit.
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xsharpx
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there are alot of options that they could have taken BUT the fact of the matter is that the guy was acting aggressive, yelled out that he had a bomb,
and that he reached into his bag. Now their first option was taking him down. There is a thing called "The escalation of force" that is you meet
weapon with weapon... If He has a stick you mace them, he has a gun you blow him away.... and so on and so on.... But the fact of the matter is that
the guy yelled bomb, headed towards the cockpit and was acting aggressive.. when he reached into his bag that is when they fired to save everyone's
life. Now from what I saw on the television / news at work was that 1 air marshall fired 3 rounds and the other unloaded a FULL clip... Thats 15
rounds damn there should have been no reason that he unloaded the full clip into the guy.... Just my 2 cents though... None of us were there though to
speak 100% accurately on it though
p.s. Dont you find it funny though that they train the guys to shoot to maim NOT to kill but yet they train them to shoot 2 rounds center mass.... you
should center mass and the rounds are going to kill the perspon
Have you ever PAID ... YOUR DUES IN ... BLOOD ~~ Dead City Shakers
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Voodoobillyman
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The fact of the matter is anyone who is trained in anti terrorism measures is taught to retain reaction in their muscle memory, that is to say, you
dont think, you act. In the Navy we started training reaction right after the USS Cole was bombed in Yemen back in 2000. What we teach is this, there
is a certain boundary or a specific type of action that constitutes reaction using deadly force. Deadly force is considered a double tap to center of
mass, you can actually be tried at court martial for trying to kneecap or wing someone. The rule is if your shooting, your shooting to kill. What
these agebts did was exactly what they are trained to do. Good on them, you dont wait to sort it out and think it through, that gets people killed, if
a certain boundary is crossed, you shoot to kill. If I had been on the plane I would have wanted them to shoot the dude based on the events. Now as
far as the overkill, well, adrenalin is a bitch.
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