newbreedbrian
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affirmative action...
what are your thoughts? has it been successful? is it necessary? has it evened the playing field a bit?
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, ?You know, I want to set those people over there on
fire, but I?m just not close enough to get the job done.? George Carlin
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Discipline
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Reverse discrimination.
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
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Voodoobillyman
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
Reverse discrimination. |
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clevohardcore
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
Reverse discrimination. |
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Each aspect of the soul has it's own part to play, but the ideal is harmonious agreement with reason and control.
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moron
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Im gonna go against the grain here and say it was the best thing that's ever been done in this country. I couldnt tell you if it's necessary today
though. It's not a topic I keep up to date with.
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BKT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
Reverse discrimination. |
agree 100% it is the biggest bunch of shit. The right man for the job should ge it, not the right colour for the job.
MM.
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XnMeX
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| Quote: | Originally posted by metal mulisha
| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
Reverse discrimination. |
agree 100% it is the biggest bunch of shit. The right man for the job should ge it, not the right colour for the job.
MM. |
Not to mention you even get extra points on some admisions tests for some colleges for being "NOT white".
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Voodoobillyman
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My family hails from ireland, my grandparents came straight off the boat from County Cork and they still werent forced to work the railways with the
Chinese immigrants. the point is no one alive today can claim to be a slave, yeah they may have it in the bloodline, but they did not suffer at all
for it. This shit is outdated and needs to go away, anyone taking advantage of it right now didnt suffer a hill o fuckin beans for it, affirmative
action= bullshit, and fuck sharpton, jackson and all those other mutherfuckers who cry the big cry for this crap. This is one post away from the hate
boards
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newbreedbrian
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i'm pretty torn on the issue and i'd like to play devil's advocate for a moment. the creation of a black middle class has been a very positive thing.
does the end justify the means? not sure, that's a tough question. remember the end of slavery hardly ended discrimination. the civil rights movement
is only 40 years old. one generation, our parents. the right wing would say that blacks need to work hard and get out of the cycle of poverty. i think
anyone who says that things are even and everyone has the same opportunities is pretty naive. racism may be politically incorrect now, but it is alive
and well. my family is of irish descent as well as is a large portion of newfoundland. the irish were brought there by the english merchants as
laborers. back then they worked on the credit system which essentially amounted to slavery in order to keep the class system in place. they were given
credit for their efforts at the company store, which were owned by the merchants. the merchants set the prices at the store as well as the credit
given. it was a neverending cycle of severe poverty. eventually due to intervention by the government in the first half of the 20th century that
system was revoked, much to the chagrin of the merchant class. what it did was to blur class lines and give people more opportunity. what i'm trying
to say is sometimes people being forced to do the right thing can have a positive effect. should the most qualified person always be hired?
absolutely. but step back for a moment and think about it. do you not think a black person has not been hired for a job they were more than qualified
for based on discrimination in the last 40 years? that being said i don't think the issue is black and white (so to speak). discrimination is
discrimination no doubt. and the university thing really bugs me. there are universities that, when they assign a score based on someones application
, give extra points to visible minorities (usually with the exception of asians). the idea being to give people from poorer backgrounds a leg up.
that's a load of shit since i knew black people in school who came from families with a hell of a lot more money than we ever had. if the idea is to
base it on economics, than at least have the balls to drop the pc bullshit and actually BASE IT ON ECONOMICS! with an issue this complex, it pays to
look at it from both sides. someone once said "the mark of intelligence is being able to entertain another person's opinion without accepting it"
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, ?You know, I want to set those people over there on
fire, but I?m just not close enough to get the job done.? George Carlin
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DaveMoral
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I would say that without a doubt affirmative action has been positive, but at this point it's a tool used by the upper class to keep the working class
divided along racial lines. Take a white guy and a black guy who have equal qualifications and award the job to the black dude based upon a
affirmative action requirement and then you'll create a resentment in the white dude not just for affirmative action, but towards that black dude, and
then black people generally.
On the other hand, take affirmative action away and have the same situation and there's a chance that in some regions you'll have employers turning
away black people because they are black, not because they are least qualified.
It's all about balance. Ultimately it would be best to make our society less racially oriented. Unfortunately, this can't be done so long as there is
so much inequality between races. Ultimately the working class needs to unite against the priviledged for the sake of bringing state provided health
care, and etc etc. I certainly don't have the solutions, but I've got enough problems, know what I mean?
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thedog
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i just dont think someone should get a job,
just to fill some quota and be the token ethnic guy.
give it to the guy who is more qualified.
and people that complain about slavery just need to move on.
Yes it was fucked up, but it was a long time ago.
How often do you hear someone whos relatives died fighting to
end slavery in the civil war ask for their reperations.
\"thank you very little\"
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Voodoobillyman
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| Quote: |
Ultimately the working class needs to unite against the priviledged for the sake of bringing state provided health care,
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Dude, yer jokin about this right? Have you ever seen Canadas healthcare system and how it works. Franky I would rather go to an alley hack to have an
asshole abortion than go to "state sponsored" clinics. Hell the docs in the box we have in the states now are scary enough. And as an active duty
military member, my "free" healthcare is not much better, you wanna talk about scary.....yeeesh.
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newbreedbrian
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please elaborate on the faults in canadas health care system. i'd love some more information.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, ?You know, I want to set those people over there on
fire, but I?m just not close enough to get the job done.? George Carlin
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DaveMoral
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So would I.
Dude, your health care from the military would be a step up from none for me.
My wife works just to pay for her health insurance.
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moforn
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Regarding affirmative action I've got divided thoughts. I suppose I agree with the sentiment that certain groups have historically been screwed over
and that something should be done to rectify this inequity- despite our contemporary "enlightened" society certain groups remain marginalized.
While I don't object to affirmative action in principle in practice I think it falls short of it's goals. As stated earlier it creates resentment
along racial lines within the working/middle class that ultimately have a negative impact not only on the interests of the working class but on the
moral fibre of society as a whole.
I think my biggest objection is that the existence of affirmative action creates a credibility gap- casting doubt on the abilities of minorities
to excel in a field due the perception that they got in based on their ethnicity rather than their ability. As a male I'm a minority in my profession
(nursing) if the standards for me to be accepted to school or to obtain and keep my license had been lowered to make it easier for me than for most of
my colleagues I'd feel not only insulted, but also that I could never really prove myself in the field.
Recognizing that most of the inequities that seem to follow racial lines actually follow class lines much closer (ie- yes white people have
longer life expectancies in the western world than black people, but the life expectancies for well-off white folks and black folks are about the same
and the expectancies for po' honkeys and negroes is also comparable, it's just that whitey is over-represented in the well-off demographic and black
folks are disproportionately poor). The more effective and morally sound approach is to approach the problem by dealing with the factors that lead to
these differences in such ways as improving the quality of schools in lower income areas, making it easier for people from disadvantaged backgrounds
to obtain education through scholarships, bursaries or simply better funding of colleges and trade schools.
Addressing racial disparity by giving everyone equal opportunity is more effective, credible and empowering than to reduce it to a "point system"
that ultimately insults everyone involved, reinforces racist stereotypes (essentially telling minorities "we don't really expect you to be as good as
the rest of us but we'll throw you a bone now and then") and does nothing to address the underlying causes of race/class stratification.
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XHonusWagnerX
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Discipline
Reverse discrimination. |
All that I read was the first and second post of this thread so far, but this is definitly my opinion on it.
Allthough I dont really like the term 'reverse' discrimination. That makes it sound like discrimination is defined as whites against others when its
really just a blanket term. Discrimination is bullshit no matter what and when its used to help someone lesser qualified for something its even worse.
| Quote: | Originally posted by REV.PAULIE
HONUS-as much as i can't stand a great deal of what you really like (for my own reasons that i would never hold,nor impose,against you),YOU FUCKING
RULE!
YOU,HONUS,IS WHAT MAKES THE "EDGE" COOL.
YOUR FRIEND,
PAULIE |
check out my post contributions at www.VinylNoize.com
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DaveMoral
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Unfortunately it is assumed that all black people who get jobs over white people are less qualified... I have my doubts that this is the case in the
majority of situations. I honestly think that when a man gets turned down for a job in favor of a black man he automatically, and racistly(is that a
word?), makes the assumption that the black man was less qualified and that affirmative action was working against him. I don't know all the facts,
but like I said... I doubt this is always the case, or even often the case.
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Killthehumans
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I have mixed feelings on it. The fact is it is not right to turn a man down for a job because he isnt a certain color, or hire a someone because they
are. However i do agree with it being used for colleges and stuff.
just take a look at the papers
your leaders
they\'re killers
they\'re liars
what they do in your
name to make the bodies pile higher
the murders, the terror
they\'ve done it forever
as we sit band and smile
at the script they sell us
but now the victims, they\'re rising
their numbers\'s multiplying
they want their revenge for the years
that they\'ve been dying
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tireironsaint
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
Unfortunately it is assumed that all black people who get jobs over white people are less qualified... I have my doubts that this is the case in the
majority of situations. I honestly think that when a man gets turned down for a job in favor of a black man he automatically, and racistly(is that a
word?), makes the assumption that the black man was less qualified and that affirmative action was working against him. I don't know all the facts,
but like I said... I doubt this is always the case, or even often the case. |
If this is honestly what
happens, why would there need to be a government program like Affirmative Action? Seriously, if it's not promoting people over others strictly based
on their race, what is it doing? That IS what AA is designed to do, you do realize that, yes? I haven't been involved in one of these situations as I
really haven't worked any jobs where this was a big concern, but just the idea behind AA is a racist one. I think that there is no need for a program
to artificially "equalize" the races because I don't believe that one race is superior to others, nor that one race is inferior to the rest. I agree
with what moforn was saying about how something like this needs to be based on economic issues instead of racial ones. Give that scholarship to the
poor kid with promise, not just to someone because your school doesn't have X number of people of that race. Give the job to whoever deserves it, not
to whoever fills your hiring quota. I think it's just as bad for schools to use it as it is for employers. In the long run schools will look worse
racially because there will be the overpriveleged rich (predominately) white kids who can buy all the help they need to ace every class and then
people who were let in to the school because of their race. Some of the racially admitted students will do fine, some will be underprepared and not do
so well, and some will be poor inner city kids with nothing to get them even close to being prepared and no way to afford things like tutors that
might be able to bring them up where they need to be to do well in school. Obviously, I'm not saying that people who aren't white are all too stupid
to do well in school or that rich whites are all smarter than average, what I'm saying is that money plays a huge role in tipping the scales in
someone's favor. Rich kids go to the best schools BEFORE college and are better prepared, they can afford tutors or to buy the answers. Poor kids of
any color can't do these things and are at a disadvantage from the start because of a lack of decent schooling from elementary school on. Race
shouldn't enter the picture at all unless, of course, you are of the assumption that it is race that causes the differences in people and so the
playing field can only be leveled by giving unfair advantage to what you see as the inferior race. Fuck Affirmative Action.
Veritas odium parit
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DaveMoral
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All I'm saying is that I have my doubts that in every instance, and in MOST instances, that AA is used to give jobs to lesser qualified people because
of their skintone vs two men of different ethnicities with equal qualification and the darker skinned qualified man being chosen for the job. See what
I'm saying?
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tireironsaint
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I see what you're saying, but my point is that there shouldn't be any kind of program where that is not only an option, but is a rewarded action.
Veritas odium parit
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newbreedbrian
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like i said the university thing is really skewed. as far as the hiring process goes, this is where things get more complicated. race shouldn't be an
issue, but let's face it...it is. especially at the dawn of affirmative action, and yes, still today. for every one black person hired because of
affirmative action, it'd be fair to say to say there are substantially more not hired because of their skin color. whether anyone wants to admit it or
not, we all know people who, if they were in charge, would be unlikely to hire a black person over a white person regardless of qualification. and
this gets more pronounced when talking about a better job than a crappy dishwashing job or the like. as far as lowering scoring standards for a job or
school, that's nothing but condescending. i guess like i said it comes back to does the end justify the means? lets face it, without AA alot of
families would not have had the opportunities they had 30 years ago to make a better life for them and their families. i wish i had a better system to
promote equality. fact is i don't and none of us do. maybe there isn't one.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, ?You know, I want to set those people over there on
fire, but I?m just not close enough to get the job done.? George Carlin
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