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Voodoobillyman
The Artist Formerly Known As...
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Location: Eastern Seaboard of the United States
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Mood: my daughters beautiful curiousity
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
Still, just talking about something isn't a criminal act until you take steps to make it happen. So the question now is this... did the informant push
them to make it happen where as they may not have gone as far as they did(attempt to purchase weapons whose real cost they didn't even know) if he
hadn't been encouraging them to do so. One of the suspects called the police talking about someone urging him to get a map of Fort Dix.
Like I said, I'm reserving my judgement BUT the rule of thumb is "innocent until proven guilty" and no matter how guilty reports might be making these
guys appear right now... the burden of proof is on the government and we should be skeptical of their claims until they can actually prove these guys
guilty. I'll be keeping track of this one as best I can. |
This point is where you and I differ on opinion. If the informant gave them a valid direction to move in towards bringing their plans to fruition,
they are just as guilty as they would be if they had done it on their own. I don't buy the whole "entrapment" plea as they went along, fuck
entrapment, you have to be doing something wrong to be entrapped. Inability and ignorance are no kind of defense in my humble opinion. If the intent
is their without the means, you are guilty. Where does the line get drawn, should the cops stand back and wait for someone to actually walk on to base
and begin shooting before they intervene so they have an airtight case in the publics view, or should they head it off at the very earliest stages
possible? There are no easy answers anymore for this kind of issue.
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MyOwnWay
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
I'm not trying to start anything here |
Not at all. I cant speak for anyone else, but I enjoy a level headed debate.
I've read your other posts regarding this and I am inclined to agree with you. At what point is "interviening too soon" especially when the plan is to
harm someone. And I do agree with your point of them although being unorganized, the concept and will is seemingly still there.
However... I say things all the time, and some of the can be constued in very bad ways. I am in nowway gonna incriminate myself on a public board but
people talk. When you are angry, frustrated and so on... You talk. "I want to beat the shit outta that dude" or "I'd kill that person with my bare
hands" and other such things. Its human nature. But none of this was materializing until the informant pushed things into thier face. Maybe they had
the intent, maybe they did not. My point in this is that we are judging them on these acts, when they were invited into this. They had made no moves,
zero, prior to the informant coming in contact with them. That is what I see as not fair. And entrapment in this case, to me, is a justifiable call.
Now had they acted on this and began the plotting and so on by themselves, I'd agree with putting them away. But that didnt happen. The pizza guy
talked for months about getting a map and never followed thru with it. I understand the severity of it. But dont forget we all talk shit.
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Voodoobillyman
The Artist Formerly Known As...
Posts: 4247
Registered: 8-12-2005
Location: Eastern Seaboard of the United States
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Mood: my daughters beautiful curiousity
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MyOwnWay
| Quote: | Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
I'm not trying to start anything here |
Not at all. I cant speak for anyone else, but I enjoy a level headed debate.
I've read your other posts regarding this and I am inclined to agree with you. At what point is "interviening too soon" especially when the plan is to
harm someone. And I do agree with your point of them although being unorganized, the concept and will is seemingly still there.
However... I say things all the time, and some of the can be constued in very bad ways. I am in nowway gonna incriminate myself on a public board but
people talk. When you are angry, frustrated and so on... You talk. "I want to beat the shit outta that dude" or "I'd kill that person with my bare
hands" and other such things. Its human nature. But none of this was materializing until the informant pushed things into thier face. Maybe they had
the intent, maybe they did not. My point in this is that we are judging them on these acts, when they were invited into this. They had made no moves,
zero, prior to the informant coming in contact with them. That is what I see as not fair. And entrapment in this case, to me, is a justifiable call.
Now had they acted on this and began the plotting and so on by themselves, I'd agree with putting them away. But that didnt happen. The pizza guy
talked for months about getting a map and never followed thru with it. I understand the severity of it. But dont forget we all talk shit.
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I see your point, but what if it had been someone else who pushed them in the right direction rather than the informant and no one was the wiser until
they opened fire on a bunch of unarmed, unaware soldiers on that base? They had the intent and thats enough for me. Heres where your theory of
everyone talks smack dosen't sit the same way in my opinion. If you get cut off in traffic and you say I would kill that fucker or whatever it may be,
then someone comes to you and says, heres where they live, heres their schedule, and heres the weapon to do it with, would you go through with it?
These guys were going to go through with it. Thats the big difference in my eyes. It dosen't matter to me how they were aided or set up or whatever,
they fully intended to do it when the plan began to seemingly take a solid form.
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upyerbum
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I constantly talk about seccesion and overthrowing the government, so where does that leave me? I find it worrisome, we had a similiar situation in
Toronto, but those guys were a little more serious, however the authorities totally enabled them. Either way, they'll never take me alive.
Well, its this place where nobody works, and the pigs don\'t give you any shit. Everyone smokes weed and gets drunk all day. Its a place where
cunts like me and you can truly take it easy and relax. Know what I mean?
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Voodoobillyman
The Artist Formerly Known As...
Posts: 4247
Registered: 8-12-2005
Location: Eastern Seaboard of the United States
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Mood: my daughters beautiful curiousity
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let us not forget that 3 of these guys were in this country illegaly which brings the other "hot topic" to light, immigration reform. they should not
have been here to plan this in the first place.
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MyOwnWay
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
If you get cut off in traffic and you say I would kill that fucker or whatever it may be, then someone comes to you and says, heres where they live,
heres their schedule, and heres the weapon to do it with, would you go through with it? |
But you and I are rational thinkers. You and I wouldnt do it like that. But someone less rational has no means or intentions of following thru with
it, but if handed the golden key so to speak, someone may take it a bit more seriousley.
Tell you what I would do. If someone hurt a family member or close friend in an unforgivable way, and I stewed over this and would love to act on it
but cant... Then someone approaches me with the weapon, their schedule, and where they live (taken from your example), then I would be more inclined.
These guys have an anger (assuming) towards things as it conflicts with their beliefs. Why are they here? Cant answer that, but they are and it doesnt
make them guilty.
I am not defending their intentions. I am saying that the case inpoint is entrapment. Its not a matter of "what if's". I do believe they were set up
and targeted and made an example out of. Maybe that sounds like a good idea but until they were approached, they were still innocent people talking
shit.
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Voodoobillyman
The Artist Formerly Known As...
Posts: 4247
Registered: 8-12-2005
Location: Eastern Seaboard of the United States
Member Is Offline
Mood: my daughters beautiful curiousity
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MyOwnWay
| Quote: | Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
If you get cut off in traffic and you say I would kill that fucker or whatever it may be, then someone comes to you and says, heres where they live,
heres their schedule, and heres the weapon to do it with, would you go through with it? |
But you and I are rational thinkers. You and I wouldnt do it like that. But someone less rational has no means or intentions of following thru with
it, but if handed the golden key so to speak, someone may take it a bit more seriousley.
Tell you what I would do. If someone hurt a family member or close friend in an unforgivable way, and I stewed over this and would love to act on it
but cant... Then someone approaches me with the weapon, their schedule, and where they live (taken from your example), then I would be more inclined.
These guys have an anger (assuming) towards things as it conflicts with their beliefs. Why are they here? Cant answer that, but they are and it doesnt
make them guilty.
I am not defending their intentions. I am saying that the case inpoint is entrapment. Its not a matter of "what if's". I do believe they were set up
and targeted and made an example out of. Maybe that sounds like a good idea but until they were approached, they were still innocent people talking
shit. |
we agree to disagree on this then, we can talk until blue in the face but no ones being convinced here. It's nice to discuss without heated tempers
though.
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Voodoobillyman
The Artist Formerly Known As...
Posts: 4247
Registered: 8-12-2005
Location: Eastern Seaboard of the United States
Member Is Offline
Mood: my daughters beautiful curiousity
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| Quote: | Originally posted by upyerbum
I constantly talk about seccesion and overthrowing the government, so where does that leave me? I find it worrisome, we had a similiar situation in
Toronto, but those guys were a little more serious, however the authorities totally enabled them. Either way, they'll never take me alive.
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you are more than within your rights to do so, but would you take it to the point of carrying a fully automatic weapon to a place you deem responsible
for your woes and begin firing blindly at everyone in sight. These guys intended to do this and thats the big difference in my opinion. You can say
they were instigated by the informant or whatever, that dosen't matter to me, they were willing to go through with it and thats the bottom line in my
eyes.
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MyOwnWay
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
we agree to disagree on this then, we can talk until blue in the face but no ones being convinced here. It's nice to discuss without heated tempers
though. |
Kinda funny. After I posted that, I thought the exact same thing, that you just wrote.
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Voodoobillyman
The Artist Formerly Known As...
Posts: 4247
Registered: 8-12-2005
Location: Eastern Seaboard of the United States
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Mood: my daughters beautiful curiousity
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MyOwnWay
| Quote: | Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
we agree to disagree on this then, we can talk until blue in the face but no ones being convinced here. It's nice to discuss without heated tempers
though. |
Kinda funny. After I posted that, I thought the exact same thing, that you just wrote. |
great minds (in disagreeance or not) think alike
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MyOwnWay
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
| Quote: | Originally posted by MyOwnWay
| Quote: | Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
we agree to disagree on this then, we can talk until blue in the face but no ones being convinced here. It's nice to discuss without heated tempers
though. |
Kinda funny. After I posted that, I thought the exact same thing, that you just wrote. |
great minds (in disagreeance or not) think alike |
Exactly.
*smiles and hands a beer to Voodoo*
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Siczine.com
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Yeah topics of religion and politics can get really heated, fast. It's always nice to see rationality prevail.
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Voodoobillyman
The Artist Formerly Known As...
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Location: Eastern Seaboard of the United States
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Mood: my daughters beautiful curiousity
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Siczine.com
Yeah topics of religion and politics can get really heated, fast. It's always nice to see rationality prevail. |
Dosen't the saying go "Never dicuss politics, money or religion at a party" Or something like that, it's guaranteed to get the blood boiling in most
cases.
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Voodoobillyman
The Artist Formerly Known As...
Posts: 4247
Registered: 8-12-2005
Location: Eastern Seaboard of the United States
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Mood: my daughters beautiful curiousity
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this case will be interesting to follow indeed, and it only got a speck of news coverage here which leads me to believe the White House didn't invest
that much of their propoganda machines resources towards it.
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Siczine.com
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And most of the people that are talking about it think the people involved are "arabs".
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ENDERA.x
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"Abdullahu was familiar with Fort Dix because it was the first place he landed when arriving in the United States as a refugee from Kosovo
-Well thats one way to repay a country that took you in.
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DaveMoral
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
Still, just talking about something isn't a criminal act until you take steps to make it happen. So the question now is this... did the informant push
them to make it happen where as they may not have gone as far as they did(attempt to purchase weapons whose real cost they didn't even know) if he
hadn't been encouraging them to do so. One of the suspects called the police talking about someone urging him to get a map of Fort Dix.
Like I said, I'm reserving my judgement BUT the rule of thumb is "innocent until proven guilty" and no matter how guilty reports might be making these
guys appear right now... the burden of proof is on the government and we should be skeptical of their claims until they can actually prove these guys
guilty. I'll be keeping track of this one as best I can. |
This point is where you and I differ on opinion. If the informant gave them a valid direction to move in towards bringing their plans to fruition,
they are just as guilty as they would be if they had done it on their own. I don't buy the whole "entrapment" plea as they went along, fuck
entrapment, you have to be doing something wrong to be entrapped. Inability and ignorance are no kind of defense in my humble opinion. If the intent
is their without the means, you are guilty. Where does the line get drawn, should the cops stand back and wait for someone to actually walk on to base
and begin shooting before they intervene so they have an airtight case in the publics view, or should they head it off at the very earliest stages
possible? There are no easy answers anymore for this kind of issue. |
Fortunately entrapment IS a legal defense, so that's not really an issue so much. It's like an undercover urging a dude to hire a prostitute,
especially if the prostitute in question is also an undercover.
This case is distressing, I've talked about jihad, revolution and the sorts all over hte internet. Been involved in groups with documents to that
effect, never EVER did anything illegal... never the less, all the things I did within the law of the land could put suspicion on me. I've been
questioned by the Feds about that stuff as well. I've gone to shooting ranges with groups of Muslims, gone to paintball courses with groups of
Muslims. Let's say I was a bit unhinged... or rather, extremely impressionable, and a dude comes along convinces me that we can make this shit happen
and puts pressure on me to do something that previously I'd only spoken about and never taken steps to make it happen. Let's say that person is an FBI
informant or undercover... in that case it would be the government and its agents putting pressure on me to specifically so they could put someone in
jail for the crime they encouraged me to commit. That's entrapment. Regardless of all the what ifs, like what if someone that wasn't a Fed
informant/agent came along and pushed the suspects in the right direction, its entrapment to push them into a criminal act in order to charge them
with it. Otherwise they wouldn't have done it and never really put any effort into making their talk reality.
Like I said, I'm going to be watching this one... but I have a feeling its certainly not as clear as we are being made to believe. Entrapment is
difficult to prove, especially in cases like this post-9/11, because they would basically have to prove that the entire plot was the idea of the
informant rather than him saying the right things and putting the right pressure where and making the right resources seem available to get these guys
to make steps towards putting their talk into action.
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upyerbum
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Voodoobillyman
| Quote: | Originally posted by upyerbum
but would you take it to the point of carrying a fully automatic weapon to a place you deem responsible for your woes and begin firing blindly at
everyone in sight. |
I would never harm an innocent. But I'm not into terror. I'm into truth. I'll never understand why these guys don't hit military and infrastructure,
it would give far more credibility to their cause. But politics aside, someone who attacks innocent people is a coward, period.
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Well, its this place where nobody works, and the pigs don\'t give you any shit. Everyone smokes weed and gets drunk all day. Its a place where
cunts like me and you can truly take it easy and relax. Know what I mean?
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MyOwnWay
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Registered: 1-27-2005
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Upyerbum. I'm glad you quoted Voodoo's comment. I couldnt possibley agree more with that statement.
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Discipline
* DRUNKEN MONKEY *
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| Quote: | Originally posted by upyerbum
I constantly talk about seccesion and overthrowing the government, so where does that leave me? I find it worrisome, we had a similiar situation in
Toronto, but those guys were a little more serious, however the authorities totally enabled them. Either way, they'll never take me alive.
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Two of them lived around the corner from me. How scary is that?
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
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barc0debaby
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"One of the defendants, Tatar, worked at his father's pizzeria and made deliveries to the base, using the opportunity to scout out Fort Dix for an
attack, authorities said."
Every military installation I've ordered a pizza at the delivery boy has to wait outside the gates.
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JawnDiablo
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seriously.
i made a wrong turn coming out of a concert at the spectrum back when i was first driving and accidentally ended up at tha phila navy yard, back when
it was still an active base. there was no way i was gettin in there. it was pretty well guarded at its checkpoint....
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DaveMoral
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Yeah, realistically, how much access would the pizza delivery guy have for a military base and how many service men would they actually be able to get
with that kind of access. "So, Tatar, what did you see?" "Well, I got a real good look at the checkpiont at the front gate... other than that I
couldn't tell you much but what I saw within 100 yards of that"
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Discipline
* DRUNKEN MONKEY *
Posts: 11900
Registered: 9-8-2004
Location: Over here
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Mood: The Alley Dukes
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveMoral
Yeah, realistically, how much access would the pizza delivery guy have for a military base and how many service men would they actually be able to get
with that kind of access. "So, Tatar, what did you see?" "Well, I got a real good look at the checkpiont at the front gate... other than that I
couldn't tell you much but what I saw within 100 yards of that" |
This I believe 100%. While I believe some might try to attack a military base, I don;t think a pizza delivery man would have enough access to plan a
suitable attack.
‘Do you know what a love letter is? It’s a bullet from a fucking gun. Straight through your heart.’
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upyerbum
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Posts: 3226
Registered: 10-14-2005
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
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When I was in the sevice we were training in England and they have barricades and armed guards for about 100 metres leading up to the entrance to the
camp, me and this Irish guy were loaded drunk and we went running up to the gate yelling "No VC, No VC". We almost got shot.
Well, its this place where nobody works, and the pigs don\'t give you any shit. Everyone smokes weed and gets drunk all day. Its a place where
cunts like me and you can truly take it easy and relax. Know what I mean?
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