Schiavo mess in Florida

moron - 3-22-2005 at 11:50 AM

Im sure most people have heard about this lady.

What a fucking mess of a situation. At first I was totally on the side of the husband because I believe that a person should have the right to choose if they want to live or not, but the more I hear about this the more Im glad I dont have to be involved in this mess. Who really knows if this lady really told her husband that she wouldnt want to live if she was a vegetable, and so then who's orders should the doctors follow? The husband or the family?

I know what my wishes are in that situation, but what if the family is right and this lady had religious beliefs that would make her go against removing her feeding tube. I do find it absurd that the family thinks this lady will actually get better when the doctors say that she'll be like that forever.

what does the Thorp board think about this? These types of threads usually seem to fail, but I figured I'd give it a shot.

BDx13 - 3-22-2005 at 01:53 PM

moron, you're absolutely right, this is a mess. i mean, being in a coma is one thing - people can come out of them, even after years - but from what i understand, i don't think there's any recovering from being in a 'persistent vegetative state'.

the whole 'religious beliefs' element is likely to make this argument the most difficult, because that is what will really bring the politicians out in droves. and whose to say what her beliefs were? i know a ton of people who tell their parents one thing about their beliefs, but live the complete opposite. i mean who are the parents, or even the spouse, to say?

several years ago, one of my best friends died of a heroin overdose. a few weeks later, i was discussing this person's passing with an equally close friend, who is also a devout christian. during our conversation, he declared that our friend had gone to hell. (there's really no sugar coating that one, is there?!). when i countered, with the ol' "well, how do you know, and who are you to say?", his response was "he hadn't accepted christ into his life, and he didn't live a christian lifestyle."

now, i was raised as a catholic, and as i recall their rules, so long as you confess your sins, and welcome christ into your life, then you're free to enjoy the spoils of eternal salvation, even if you make that move at the last minute. (feel free to correct me if this is inaccurate; it's been a while). now clearly, that's not meant to be how the game is played, but technically, our boy could have hit that needle, realized something was very wrong, and embraced the lord with a quickness at the very end.

but you know what, we'll never know. i understand why my christian friend believes what he does, but again, he can not claim to know what our friend's dying thoughts were, and subsequentially, his final destination. and that's kind of the point with ms. schiavo... if people are going to play the religion card, who are any of us to say what her position was? if she had a relationship with god, it was hers and hers alone up until the last minute the had the faculties to maintain it.

more about the religious argument here

moron - 3-22-2005 at 06:12 PM

Sounds like her parents are just trying to be good Catholics I guess, but what I wonder is how a judge will decide who can legally make the decisions for Schiavo: her husband or her family. Neither was assigned as her health care proxy, so does it automatically default to the husband?

I had also wondered why the Federal government has gotten so involved in this personal matter. The only thing I can come up with is that the family is saying that Schiavo's civil rights are being violated... at least that's what I think Ive heard. From what I understand they're arguing that Schiavo was never given the right to her own attorney. Im not really sure how an attorney would advocate on behalf of a client who can't communicate.

moron - 3-23-2005 at 11:18 AM

the article Duane linked to was really interesting. It sort of touches upon the different ideas of what "life" is according to different religions. It seems that Catholics are the most strict, so it's really no suprise that priests would show their support for the family. If they didnt they wouldnt be doing their jobs as Catholic priests. Im still confused about why Congress and the President got so involved in this though.

BDx13 - 3-23-2005 at 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by moron
Im still confused about why Congress and the President got so involved in this though.

the 'moral majority' that is the heartland of this country.

GabeTexasGAMC - 3-23-2005 at 01:19 PM

I have no idea why this guy is insiting... He looks to inherit ever medical bill that shes gained since being in a coma... if he was to divorce her while she was alive, he wouldnt have to pay. SO... that being said, it seems he really seems to be doing it out of love, or whatever, and the parents are suffering, having to watch their daughter starve to death. They check the parents before going in for ice chips or rags that might have water...
sad as hell.
what the fuck are we as americans now? This is entertainment?

moron - 3-23-2005 at 01:41 PM

from what I understand, he and his wife won a malpractice settlement and that's what's paying the doctor bills. I dont know if the money is running out and that's why he wants to pull the plug or if he's really thinking of her wishes. Who am I to say anyway...

And I dont think this is really entertainment. I think it's more of an issue that forces people to reevaluate their own beliefs. This whole situation is really fucking sad, but hopefully it will help people realize that they should talk about what their wishes are with family members, write living wills and appoint health care proxies so this doesnt happen to other people. Unfortunately I dont think that most people take the time to understand the complexity of this situation. I was in the corner store yesterday getting breakfast and some lady started talking about this when it came on the TV. She was saying "Just put the feeding tube back in and leave the family alone!" when it's really the family who made the fuss in the first place.

CR83 - 3-23-2005 at 05:04 PM

I think Duane hit it on the head Man. It really comes down to faith and what that actually is for you. I know what works for me but I'd never try and make that the way it should be for anyone else. This whole thing is a mess. I feel bad for all involved. This is a great reason why you should get a Will drawn up. It will take care of everything for you if handled properly. If it was around election time right now this thing would be even worse I bet.

MyOwnWay - 3-23-2005 at 05:10 PM

Its a terrible situation.

BUT!

What is a life when shes a vegetable. People say she could still live just with the feeding tube. She breathes on her won. But she is a immobile. Unable to communicate.

BUT!

Being a parent I can see their side of clinging to every last glimmer of hope. Its been 15 years though, they should have let her go in peace, before all this shit started.

i honestly can't believe this shit.

BDx13 - 3-23-2005 at 09:57 PM

Gov. Bush Seeks to Take Custody of Schiavo

moron - 3-23-2005 at 10:26 PM

like the article says, what right does he have to become guardian over this lady?

The link to the Christian Science Monitor article does a really good job of discussing all of the issues thoroughly on this case. I know they have a reputation of being very fair and unbiased, and they pretty much say that Congress and the President overstepped their jurisdiction by meddling in something that has nothing to do with Federal Law and now it looks like Jeb Bush is just trying to use strongarm tactics to push his views into a situation that doesnt and shouldnt involve him. Of course that's just one of the pieces of this whole thing the article talks about, but I had forgotten about the Christian Science Monitor. I need to read it more often.

OH MY FUCKING GOD

BDx13 - 3-25-2005 at 05:38 PM

Man Tries to Steal Gun to 'Rescue Schiavo'

this fuck tried to rob a GUN STORE with a BOX CUTTER!

seriously, this case is bringing out the craziest kooks we got!

admittedly, this is a terrible way to die. but, obviously, you can argue it was a terrible way to live, but for god's sake, give this woman some peace and an ounce of dignity!

defstarsteve - 3-25-2005 at 06:22 PM

starving to death would suck....
let them jsut shoot her up with morphine and not feel it....
if your as good as dead, I'd rather see you that way, and rmember the good times, then have to deal withthe pain of your suffering

but the husband is a scum bag....
everyone get a fucking will, and save your family from this bullshit

moron - 3-25-2005 at 07:06 PM

Im not a doctor, but does a person in a vegetative state even know theyre dying? Do they know theyre thirsty or hungry? If not, is that really suffering?

SkarryJosh - 3-25-2005 at 11:53 PM

This shit seriously makes me Ill. There is no reason it shoulda been takin this far. Its nobodys business but the Parents and the Husband. I think If you want to say anything on this case you should know the facts.

Its mainly Far Right Wing Christian Kooks pushing theyre right to life Agenda. Now that poor woman is nothing but a Postergirl pet rock for these sick peoples political agenda.

Sad.

gavin - 3-26-2005 at 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkarryJosh
This shit seriously makes me Ill. There is no reason it shoulda been takin this far. Its nobodys business but the Parents and the Husband. I think If you want to say anything on this case you should know the facts.

Its mainly Far Right Wing Christian Kooks pushing theyre right to life Agenda. Now that poor woman is nothing but a Postergirl pet rock for these sick peoples political agenda.

Sad.

im no right wing christian by any means and i think she should have been kept alive
what do ya make of that?!?!?!

TTF - 3-26-2005 at 12:32 AM

If you want to check out a really great book about dying, and what happens to the human body as your dying, you should check out this book.

If the link doesn't work the book is called 'How We Die' and it's really a remarkable book and dispels of the myth of dying with dignity. Having seen people die, there ain't nothing dignified about it. As far as the Schiavo chick, I don't think there's a strong medical consensus on whether she really is 'brain dead' and that's what is complicating this thing. I really don't give a fuck what happens to her, I've got my own problems. Sad situation but not my affair.

BDx13 - 3-26-2005 at 07:49 AM

todd - fixed the link up for ya. i've heard of 'How WeDie' before, but my attention span and leisure time are both pretty limited, so i don't read many books.

when i suggested that ms. schiavo be left to die with some dignity, i only meant that she be allowed to do it so of the public eye and with a few fewer people hovering around her. as has been mentioned, i'm sure dying by any means isn't pretty.

my grandmother had alzheimer's and passed away about a year ago. after years of getting progressively worse, one day she finally stopped taking her medicine, stopped eating and stopped drinking. lucky for her, she was at her home, with her family the entire time. it still took her almost two (very long) weeks to pass away.

TTF - 3-26-2005 at 07:48 PM

I wasn't going after you, BD. Yeah, to have to die on tv is pretty fucking miserable and the news media should stop exploiting the fuck out of her. How many innocent little kids do you think have died since they started their round the clock reporting? How many people have done really heroic things in that time? I really don't have an opinion on whether she lives or dies, I don't have an answer. It's sad that her husband said today that she looks like she is at peace or something (which flies in the face oa permanent veg. state diagnosis), and her parents say that she's telling them that she doesn't want to do. Both sides are in horrible fucking agony and are seeing what they would like to see, more than likely, but either way you slice it, the whole thing blows, alive or dead. Maybe you should call me and I'll read that book to you before bed. Some warm milk, some cookies, and 'How We Die'. U2U me about the ep business if you get a chance. Positive Youth, I'm the Youth of Today...

SAAAAARS - 3-26-2005 at 10:52 PM

i didn't read everything everyone said, but i definitely know if i couldn't do shit for the rest of my life, i would want to just die. what's the point of living? if she was stuck in the hospital for the rest of her life, but could still speak, or communicate in any way, or do anything, i'd understand why this is so rough.

i got in a debate about it with my friends mom yesterday for over an hour. this whole thing really frustrates me.

LilOz - 3-28-2005 at 01:26 AM

Terri is on myspace.

somebody has too much free time on their hands.

moron - 3-29-2005 at 01:03 PM

This is great

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB02JH1U6E.html

brooklyn - 3-29-2005 at 02:22 PM

sad how a tragic situation of 1 woman and her heartbroken man has become a political, religious, legal issue.

All these fanatics should go home and bake beans. Leave it up to the husband. he married her and stood by her for all these every long years she was semi-dead in bed. And to those religious fools who send their kids into the hospital with bottles of water. That's child abuse. Using your own flesh and blood for your religious propaganda is a big shame.
And if the US stands for a democratic, legal nation, but SHUT UP and go home , now that the courts have ruled and ruled again and ruled again. If ya want to run a sicoiety by the bible (or any other religion) go back to the 15th century!

BDx13 - 3-29-2005 at 02:28 PM

i just read that the husband, while not divorced from terri, has been living with another woman, with whom he has children (i believe), for several years. kinda sheds a different light on the ol' "who gets the say" argument, don't it?

SAAAAARS - 3-29-2005 at 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Duane
i just read that the husband, while not divorced from terri, has been living with another woman, with whom he has children (i believe), for several years. kinda sheds a different light on the ol' "who gets the say" argument, don't it?

he stood by his wife for the first 7 years before he looked at another woman. he was trained so that he could take care of her himself. are you telling me if your wife was a bed ridden vegitable that couldn't communicate, you would sit and wait forever?

BDx13 - 3-29-2005 at 03:08 PM

first off, from a legal standpoint, i do think one could argue a stronger case for the parents as primary care giver if the husband has essentially moved on. the main glitch being, of course, that they are not technically divorced. is he married to the other woman? imagine being in her shoes through all of this. hope they don't get him on polygamy laws!

as for your question, saaaars... obviously, that's a very difficult one to answer. but i like to think that as long as my wife is alive, and i can look into her eyes, i will be by her side and faithful to her. we don't have anything in writing, but she and i are both of the opinion that if something like this were to happen to one of us, that we wouldn't want to be kept alive any longer the doctors thought it possible to recover.

moron - 3-29-2005 at 03:28 PM

I think it's the norm for people who have a spouse who has some sort of accident like in this case to see someone else. People have physical needs, and just because he's found another person that he can be intimate with doesnt mean that he doesnt care for his wife any longer and truly wants what's best for her. I mean... he's spent 15 years married to what is essentially a vegetable. I think that's being a pretty damn devoted husband.

and I know that I would want my wife/girlfriend/whoever to move on in a case like this. First... how the hell would I know if she did, and even if I was aware I wouldnt want to hold her back from fulfilling her very human and natural need for intimacy.

SAAAAARS - 3-29-2005 at 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by moron
I think it's the norm for people who have a spouse who has some sort of accident like in this case to see someone else. People have physical needs, and just because he's found another person that he can be intimate with doesnt mean that he doesnt care for his wife any longer and truly wants what's best for her. I mean... he's spent 15 years married to what is essentially a vegetable. I think that's being a pretty damn devoted husband.

and I know that I would want my wife/girlfriend/whoever to move on in a case like this. First... how the hell would I know if she did, and even if I was aware I wouldnt want to hold her back from fulfilling her very human and natural need for intimacy.

EXACTLY

BDx13 - 3-30-2005 at 10:52 AM

even the NY POST gets it.

dannynsk - 3-30-2005 at 10:55 AM

If it was me I would hope someone would clip me already. The whole thing blows.

moron - 3-30-2005 at 10:57 AM

Im suprised the Post has that headline. Arent they the more conservative newspaper of the NYC papers?

LilOz - 3-30-2005 at 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dannynsk
If it was me I would hope someone would clip me already. The whole thing blows.

Shane - 3-30-2005 at 12:11 PM

I was totally on the side of the husband at first too. Then I heard that he possibly beat her and that is how this whole thing could have started(because she is in this case because of a fall, correct?) Also if he has moved on with his life and is with another woman and has started a new family, then just give up this right to her parents. He doesn't seem to love her if he has already moved on. Just a shitty deal all the way around.

SAAAAARS - 3-30-2005 at 01:06 PM

i have no idea how true any of what i'm about to say is

but my friends mom said this all happened because she was anorexic and let it go too far and she had a heart attack and it killed her brain. or something. when she explained it, it sounded better haha.

you've got to figure, having that happen to someone you love is something that would ruin your life as well. maybe he doesn't want to be miserable forever and he's trying to be happy. i seriously don't blame the guy for having someone else. he waited seven years. for a wife that'll never respond.

Jeff trhe Greek - 3-30-2005 at 01:18 PM

Thankfully I don't have to worry about this, as my boys would take me out, and I know they would. Euthanasia, jack her up on dope and let her die but don't fuckin' starve her, that's just fucked, you don't even starve convicted diddlers to death. I don't know why he doesn't just kill her, he'd get off I'm sure. I wouldn't have even waited that long, I know my girl wouldn't want to live like that.

Shane - 3-30-2005 at 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SAAAAARS
i have no idea how true any of what i'm about to say is

but my friends mom said this all happened because she was anorexic and let it go too far and she had a heart attack and it killed her brain. or something. when she explained it, it sounded better haha.

Well that is different too. I don't know how it happened so I really have no place to say anything. Besides, you know, I don't know them. Hahaha.

moron - 3-30-2005 at 04:51 PM

the way I understand it is that she had an eating disorder that caused a chemical imbalance in her body... which stopped her heart for however long it was.

Discipline - 3-30-2005 at 05:01 PM

Just od her on morphine or shove a pillow over her face and let it be done and over with. The family really needs to move on and grieve in private, not on the news.

Six66Mike - 3-30-2005 at 10:08 PM

I don't know what the media is doing in North America, but we get stories in the paper & on the news every day here. This is what I have read & seen on tv:

1) The chick is still living. I've seen her sitting in chairs, laughing at her parents jokes, and her eyes open. She sure as fuck doesn't look vegetative in any of the videos of her in the hospice.

2) The parents & husband are fighting about her death now. He wants cremation, they want a casket funeral.

3) Someone in NC got arrested for putting a $250,000 bounty on the husbands life and $50,000 on the lawyer who has been hearing most of the arguments over the past 15 years.

4) Why the fuck was the same lawyer hearing this case repeatedly over 15 years? Why weren't the judges swapped or rotated to handle each new appeal differently and maybe get some fresh input on the situation.

5) She can breathe on her own & lives properly there and again looks like she responds to her parents when they are there. All they are doing is starving a living woman to death, that is fucked. I'm no religious guy or anything at all but what they are doing is fucking mental.

Its fucking retarded that the president & governer couldn't save this womans life yet they have both taken so many as governors in their own time. They can willingly kill people in the death chamber but can't save a breathing woman's life. No wonder people around the world have such a fucking distaste for the USA.

BDx13 - 3-30-2005 at 10:17 PM

Schiavo's expressions misleading, experts say

Six66Mike - 3-30-2005 at 10:20 PM

Experts also say she isn't suffering haha that's a load. You can't go that long without food or water & have it feel great.
And the site wants me to join up before I read the link. Boo to that.

moron - 3-30-2005 at 10:20 PM

Youve gotta copy and paste that one I think. I couldnt read the article, but Ive heard reports saying that the expressions and noises she makes and her reactions to her parents are simply reflexes.

moron - 3-30-2005 at 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Six66Mike
Experts also say she isn't suffering haha that's a load. You can't go that long without food or water & have it feel great.
And the site wants me to join up before I read the link. Boo to that.

If youre not aware of your surroundings (ie. a vegetable) then do you know whether or not youre suffering?

SAAAAARS - 3-30-2005 at 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by moron
Youve gotta copy and paste that one I think. I couldnt read the article, but Ive heard reports saying that the expressions and noises she makes and her reactions to her parents are simply reflexes.

this is what i heard too. a pro-lifer actually said to me, "SHE CAN BLINK, SHE SHOULD LIVE". what kind of argument is that? definitely reflexes.

Schiavo's expressions misleading, experts say

BDx13 - 3-30-2005 at 11:57 PM

BY JUDITH GRAHAM
Chicago Tribune

CHICAGO - (KRT) - Terri Schiavo's eyes look vacant. Her mouth hangs open. Then, her mother approaches, saying "hi baby" in a bright voice. Schiavo's lips turn upward, and her blinking accelerates.

What do these carefully edited video clips reveal about the severely brain-damaged woman?

Nothing of any real significance, medical experts say.

Therein lies one of the most difficult-to-grasp facets of this controversial right-to-die case. What appears on the surface to be intelligent, intelligible behavior on Schiavo's part is anything but, most physicians say.

To the contrary, the 41-year-old woman is capable only of meaningless, spontaneous responses arising from the deepest, most primitive centers of her brain, experts suggest.

"Her facial muscles may move, but there's no feeling behind it," says Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist who examined Schiavo in 2002 and reviewed all her medical records. "Everything you see is reflex."

Clearly, Schiavo's parents don't agree. Where doctors see muscles moving involuntarily, they see their daughter smiling. What experts call instinctual, animal-like reactions - Schiavo's face turning toward her mother as she speaks, her eyes seeming to scan the space around her - her parents deem signs of her feeling presence.

By releasing videos of their daughter for the world to watch, Schiavo's parents have appealed powerfully to the court of public opinion. But the pictures that tug at people's hearts are extremely misleading, experts warn. Some physicians believe there is evidence Schiavo may have some degree of consciousness, but they are in the minority.

"These are some of the most powerful images we've seen in American bioethics," said Laurie Zoloth, professor of medical humanities and bioethics at Northwestern University's Feinberg School of Medicine.

"It's one of the extremely painful features of this case - that it looks so much like (Schiavo) is responding, yet everything that neurologists tell us is she cannot respond. ... It's terrifying and terrible to imagine someone in a condition where they're physically present but completely unable to think or feel or process information."

Certain facts are incontrovertible. Scans have shown extensive damage to Schiavo's cerebral cortex, a part of the brain essential to higher-level functions such as cognition and consciousness. An electroencephalogram, which examined patterns of her brain's electrical activity, documented virtually no normal response.

Because Schiavo's brain stem has remained largely intact, however, certain automatic body functions - sleeping and waking, breathing, metabolizing nutrients, and others - are proceeding.

Blinking, startling in response to a stimulus, changing facial expressions and making occasional sounds are also among the body functions controlled by the brain stem.

"The part of the brain responsible for these responses - smiling, crying, chewing, moaning - is still working. But the part of the brain responsible for thinking is not," explained Dr. Ghada Ahmed, attending physician at the Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago.

Medicine calls this a "vegetative state" and considers it permanent and irreversible if a patient remains in this condition for more than a year without showing signs of improvement. Schiavo has been severely brain injured for the past 15 years.

Crucial to the diagnosis is a thorough assessment of how aware a patient is of herself and her environment. That requires prolonged observation of the person over days and extended conversations with family members and other caregivers, said Dr. Roger Albin, professor of neurology at the University of Michigan.

If the person cannot follow commands, consistently interact with others or repeatedly respond to stimuli, "we conclude whatever reactions they might have are involuntary, not purposeful," he said.

In other words, that hint of a smile is nothing more than a reflex unless Schiavo smiles frequently when her mom comes into the room. "Facial contortions do occur that could be looked at as smiling if taken out of context," said Nathan Zasler, medical director and chief executive at Concussion Care Centre of Virginia. "The question is, what is the context and is there any consistency in her response."

In Schiavo's case, "if you look at her eyes, she doesn't make track or make contact," said Cranford, who observed her clinically for 42 minutes in 2002. "If you ask her to do something, she can't do it. She smiled and grimaced, but it had nothing to do with me. She does it spontaneously.

"You go in the room and say `Terri' and her eyes open," Cranford continued. "That's an arousal response. If you go in and say `President Bush' the same thing would happen."

Cranford was one of three physicians who examined Schiavo and later testified at an extensive 2002 court hearing in Florida that she was in a persistent vegetative state. The goal was to clarify the woman's medical state and whether further treatment was warranted.

Two physicians who conducted their own exams said she had more consciousness than that diagnosis suggested.

After weighing the evidence, Florida Circuit Court Judge George Greer wrote of videos submitted as evidence: "At first blush, the video of Terri Schiavo appearing to smile and look lovingly at her mother seemed to represent cognition. This was also true for how she followed the Mickey Mouse balloon held by her father. The court has carefully viewed the videotapes ... and (finds) that these actions were neither consistent nor reproducible."

Ultimately, Greer ruled that "credible evidence overwhelmingly supports the view that Terri Schiavo remains in a persistent vegetative state" and that therapy or treatment would not alter her condition.

BDx13 - 3-31-2005 at 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by moron

Quote:

If youre not aware of your surroundings (ie. a vegetable) then do you know whether or not youre suffering?

from what i've read, when in a persistent vegetative state, one has no sense of or control over one's body.

Jeff trhe Greek - 3-31-2005 at 04:09 PM

I'd say the parents are letting her suffer to ease they're own suffering.

moron - 3-31-2005 at 04:33 PM

well, she's dead now so time for them to start grieving.

the mess doesnt seem to be over with yet though. Let's see what sort of laws will be proposed as a result of this situation.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/03/31/schiavo.washington.ap/index.html

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, called Schiavo's death a "moral poverty and a legal tragedy."

"This loss happened because our legal system did not protect the people who need protection most, and that will change," DeLay said. "The time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior, but not today. Today we grieve, we pray, and we hope to God this fate never befalls another."

Six66Mike - 4-1-2005 at 12:55 AM

Here's 2 popular chaps weighing in.

Mel Gibson said she should live & doesn't appear vegetative.

The Pope in March 2004 claimed he would want to be kept alive by machines if he ever came to that & that feeding tubes was not extraordinary care to save ones life but necessary care.

Feeding tubes are everywhere, should millions starve because they've had a tracheotemy or some shit because they can't swallow? She isn't on a breathing machine or heart pumps so let her be.

tireironsaint - 4-1-2005 at 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Six66Mike
Here's 2 popular chaps weighing in.

Mel Gibson said she should live & doesn't appear vegetative.

The Pope in March 2004 claimed he would want to be kept alive by machines if he ever came to that & that feeding tubes was not extraordinary care to save ones life but necessary care.

Feeding tubes are everywhere, should millions starve because they've had a tracheotemy or some shit because they can't swallow? She isn't on a breathing machine or heart pumps so let her be.

Guess what? She's dead.Fuck the pope and Mel Gibson too, what the fuck do either of them have to do with this ex-human?

moron - 4-1-2005 at 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Six66Mike
Mel Gibson said she should live & doesn't appear vegetative.

Not to really argue to no end, but did Mel Gibson ever see this lady other than on TV and is he a doctor? Come on.

In the newspaper today was a CT Scan photo of her brain from 2002 showing the extent of her brain injury. Im not trained to read that kind of shit, so I just took their word for it. Anyway... if that's not enough proof for people I hear an autopsy is gonna be performed soon.

For me, her diagnosis wasnt even the key issue in this case. It was who has the authority to make decisions on her behalf. When a person gets married their parents arent first in line for making decisions for that person anymore.